What Makes A Woman?

[MxJackMonroe]

Hi MNers,

A couple of days ago I did an informal webchat ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2693127-Im-Jack-Monroe-Ask-me-anything

...and it seemed to go quite well. One of the questions that came up was 'What Is A Woman'?

I'm throwing this one open to the floor - as I am interested to hear your opinions on it.

Please try to not railroad the thread with trans-bashing; it is a wider question than that, so keep responses respectful please.

Jx

By the reviled and no platformed, I meant feminists, in case that wasn't clear!

And a really big one is the economic situation of women in general and austerity in particular. Jack is talking about and campaigning about that in a time when many 'liberals' have decoupled social and economic justice.

I agree Jack has done some fantastic work here. I think she is a great woman in lots of ways. I wish she felt proud to be on our team, iykwim. Women put up with a lot of crap but we can be incredibly tough and strong in spite of it all.

I'm interested in what you mean about liberals decoupling social and economic justice. Can you elaborate or recommend anything I can read?

I mean that many young people are progressive on social issues but right wing on economic issues. They might claim to support feminism and racial equality movements, but they don't support working class people and do not address the way that poverty is a major component of sexism and racism.

There have been surveys on this, and if I remember any links I will post them or PM you.

A separate international note, this free online course is about to open again in a few days, International women's health and human rights:

lagunita.stanford.edu/courses/course-v1:GlobalHealth+IntWomensHealth+August2016/about

You don't have to do the work, and it gives you access to a message board with feminists all over the world, and all the course reading and videos. And it does focus on women and girls!

Here is an American example:

www.huffingtonpost.com/jess-coleman/stop-calling-yourself-socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative_b_7155550.html

This trans person speaks some sense. They know surgery hasn't made them into a woman.

That's great. Thank you almond.

Is this the same course somebody (possibly Buffy) mentioned about a year ago do you know? If so, I wanted to join then but was too scared I'd be rubbish. I feel a lot more confident now. Thanks for sharing the link.

In terms of genetics, it's someone without a Y chromosome. So women with Turners (single X chromosome) and men with Kleinfelters - XXY.

Or women with XY BUT without androgen receptors - Congenital adrenal hyperplasia.

Jack- if you simply want to hear the views of other women because you are still confused and you want to engage with some viewpoints you might not have thought of or heard, then why aren't you simply entering into debates anonymously? There's something a bit patronising and unpleasant and user-y about all this that I am finding distasteful tbh.

Yes, it is the course Buffy mentioned.

How much you interact on it is up to you, and they have everyone from high school students to doctors on aid projects on the course message boards, so you don't have to worry about having any particular skill or knowledge.

I find it fascinating that the companion thread I started- What Makes a Man?- has had very few serious answers. Are men not supposed to be questioning their gender identities and being prepared to step aside to make room for people who identify as male?

1. No, because blokes are never meant to do anything they can't be arsed to do.

see: turning the women's restrooms and not men's in to "all gender" spaces. And people now saying 'Men and non men'.

1. A thread in feminist theory on a site entitled "mumsnet" is unlikely to get loads of males answering and as women aren't in the business of telling men how they should define their sex it will be mostly quiet.

It's probably because it's a companion thread and not started by a 'celeb' of sorts. So people aren't taking it as seriously.

True. But are women not interested in the point? Just me?

I do think that's very telling. Trans men, having being socialised as women, aren't declaring all references to men and male biology to be transphobic. Nobody is suggesting the categories of 'Women' and 'Not-Women' to classify speakers at a political event. Men are the default.

Bertrand It might be in part because many people don't explicitly check the feminist theory board as regularly as (say) feminist chat.

I don't, usually. I only spotted this thread because it came up in active.

True. But are women not interested in the point? Just me?

people did answer seriously but in keeping with the nature of Mn in general you also got tongue in cheek answers.

The truth is while I believe penis and xy genetics make a male I don't really care about the situation. It's not my issue. If a Tm has ever raped or sexually assaulted an actual male I'd be fucking stunned. Men aren't in danger.

My annoyance about tm is the way an infinitesimally small number have started to say their being able to breastfeed means that bf is no longer a female issue. But on the whole my concern is female spaces. Let men for once be in change of their own shit. That is not the problem of feminism. Actually for that reason I'm not even sure it belongs in feminist theory. I empathize with male issues but my feminism is not about them.

True. But are women not interested in the point? Just me?

Most of us who answered know that a woman is an adult human female and a man is an adult human male. Unless someone comes along saying otherwise there isn't really a conversation to be had. (I've not checked that thread since yesterday so maybe a conversation has been had now.)

for Jack

That link is so sad.

Can someone tweet Jack and ask her if she forgot about us over here? Maybe just say the MN thread though so it doesn't bring all the MRAs and TA over to Feminist theory though.

Oh fuck, that link :(

Jack was tweeting about being in major financial shit last time I looked so we've probably dropped off her agenda for now.

At the risk of stating the obvious, if you put the 'what makes a woman?' question to e.g. sociologists, psychologists, philosophers, lawyers, I'm sure the responses would be more varied than they are here/go beyond biology. (Even asking the question elsewhere on MN would probably make a difference.)

I think perception is important, whether it's how an individual sees themself or how others see them. I also think that being a woman or a man is very much an individual as well as a collective thing. People's experiences are different.

Okay then, by that logic I am a psychologist, a sociologist, a lawyer and a philosopher.

I can state, as a person who is all of those things, that a woman is an adult human female.