What Makes A Woman?

[MxJackMonroe]

Hi MNers,

A couple of days ago I did an informal webchat ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2693127-Im-Jack-Monroe-Ask-me-anything

...and it seemed to go quite well. One of the questions that came up was 'What Is A Woman'?

I'm throwing this one open to the floor - as I am interested to hear your opinions on it.

Please try to not railroad the thread with trans-bashing; it is a wider question than that, so keep responses respectful please.

Jx

Cancelly- particularly good points made!

A Person who's body was designed to produce eggs, things may have gone wrong to affect this ability but it was the intent.

And here's the UN also stating that 'woman' refers to sex not gender:

'The term “gender” has often been wrongly used in association with data. “Gender disaggregation” or “data disaggregated by gender” are incorrect terms. Gender statistics are disaggregated by sex, an individual-level characteristic commonly recorded in censuses, surveys and administrative records, not by gender, a social concept relevant at the level of a population group (Corner, 2003). When data on demographic, social or economic characteristics are collected in the field, it is the sex of a person that is recorded, as female (woman) or male (man), not the gender. Sex-disaggregated data, however, when analysed, have the capacity to reveal differences in women’s and men’s lives that are the result of gender roles and expectations.'

And here's the link for that:

unstats.un.org/unsd/genderstatmanual/What-are-gender-stats.ashx

I guess what I'm wondering quencher, is why does your definition differ to that by the Oxford dictionary, WHO and the UN?

I also wonder why these organisations are able to explain gender inequality (sexism) so succinctly, while you require a massive wall of text to explain what basic sexism is to feminists.

I think that's the purpose of collectively shared understanding of what words mean. It means we don't have to write hundreds of words to explain the meaning of a word.

Quencher

I need a definition of a cis woman please.

If you cannot answer then your argument, as long winded as it is, is irrelevant.

What is a cis woman if a woman is not an adult female human. This is trans terminology that they want to inflict on us, surely it is definable.

And then what is the correct word for adult female human if it is not woman, and again for an adult male human if it is not man?

Gender is masculine and feminine. Not man and woman.

I don't see how it is breaking down gender to make a word to encapsulate some totally irrelevant culturally specific stereotypes when we could just have a word for human with a Danny

Fanny!

Which is slang for a vulva, not an arse, in case US posters are now confused!

Also we don't say butch when referring to a woman. I would just say my friend. It's a specific description of a look the way I might say goth or black or white. There is also femme or "mum hair" they are still women, they aren't out of the parameter of adult female

American posters on man know fanny

Mn! Blasted mobile

quencher you're talking bollocks

I'm new to the app can someone tell me how I mark what post I am on?

you're saying feminists should be fighting for those who perform feminity, rather than those who are female? No that is not what am saying. Each sex has been ascribed a gender. We all know which gender belongs to which sex. Gender is manmade idea, while sex is natural occurrence in the human body. We use gender to segregate and mistreat females in our society. When a feminist is fighting against injustice, they are fighting against preconceived idea of what a female is through what characteristics we put forward as woman.
Feminist are not just fighting how females are treated in regards to what their biology can do ( ie giving birth ) but also what you wear and on how it can define you as a female person. So if a man was able to have the complete look with what we conceive to be the standard woman, they would receive sexism and will be judged the same way a human female would if they where dressed the same way. It's what is in front of the sexist. They see what looks like a woman and by that they have stereotypes of what women are.

A Person who's body was designed to produce eggs, things may have gone wrong to affect this ability but it was the intent and that is the human female. Humans separate us from being referred to as amphibians or any other living female species out there.

I have a vague idea of what cis is because I have seen it debated on Mn. I have no interest in calling my female species cis women. That is just adding another label on top of what is already disadvantaging.

^*Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.*^
This is what I have been trying to say from the beginning. These roles, behaviours, activities change over time. They are relative and not absolute. It's society that makes it normal. When in America football is a girls sport and in the uk it's seen as boys sport. That is relative. What feminist would do is try and fight for the rights for women to be able to play the sport in the uk without it being deemed macho and they can earn the same amount according to their standard.
The website you got from describes the way i have been putting it forward.

Sorry SW, I don't know what that means.

Quencher, if the website puts forward what you mean, can you please just follow the website's example and use woman or (adult human) female to mean sex and femininity to mean gender.

Because then you wouldn't have to keep explaining really basic stuff that feminists already understand, just because you want to use language in your own unique way.

Also we don't say butch when referring to a woman. I would just say my friend. It's a specific description of a look the way I might say goth or black or white. There is also femme or "mum hair" they are still women, they aren't out of the parameter of adult female yes , why would people come up with words like that? I would still say it's because of the reason I have given above. Your use of the word the perimeter means they are not woman enough to be on the inside. You are saying they are on the outside of what woman is but still not yet man.

quencher if woman is purely a social construct, why is it that 99.5% of women are also female? Why haven't women who are unhappy with gender stereotyping "women" simply opted into "man"?

You're saying if a transwoman passes, they're a woman? Nah. Woman = Adult human female. It's not in the eye of the beholder.

If a transwoman passes they can experience one facet of sexism. A woman on the receiving end of the same sexism has knowledge of her female body plus female socialisation too.

That isn't what butch means.

Butch women and girls are women and girls.
Lesbians are women and girls.
Mothers are women and sometimes girls.
Women and girls in trousers are women and girls.
Women and girls in lipstick are women and girls.

if woman is purely a social construct, why is it that 99.5% of women are also female? Why haven't women who are unhappy with gender stereotyping "women" simply opted into "man"? They can if they want to. The only difference is that one gender man, is more dominant by dictating what falls into which category. So if a woman decides to become a man, we don't call them man, but come up with lots of different names like the ones given by swisswank. Its societies fault for bowing down to patriarchy.

Quencher, butch women are not women who want to be men. Do you understand how offensive that is?

If we all didn't draw so much damn attention to ourselves with our girlish names and garish makeup the men would give up and find someone new to pick on, right? Mm duh, what is the point of makeup, and sexy cloths? It's it's to please men and live up to male standard of a woman being groomed so that they can be desired for mating. Of cause their will be those who do it because they love.