What Makes A Woman?

[MxJackMonroe]

Hi MNers,

A couple of days ago I did an informal webchat ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2693127-Im-Jack-Monroe-Ask-me-anything

...and it seemed to go quite well. One of the questions that came up was 'What Is A Woman'?

I'm throwing this one open to the floor - as I am interested to hear your opinions on it.

Please try to not railroad the thread with trans-bashing; it is a wider question than that, so keep responses respectful please.

Jx

muffy the thread is really worth reading

No Beyond I can't, that's what I meant in the last paragraph of my post. I just don't see what the alternative would be. I wouldn't want to tell a transwoman that they can't identify as a woman because we are unable to define it without saying "female". Of course this sounds ridiculous and what I'm really saying is "fuck definitions", but I don't see another way around it.

Muffy the trans rights movement want things which are currently segregated by sex - like prisons, sport, changing rooms - to be segregated by gender. They want acknowledgement of biological sex to be taboo. They have been frighteningly successful so far.

It is incredibly important that woman continues to mean adult human female. The word for gender in this case would be feminine.

Politically, however, it is important to me to distinguish between men and women in order to protest against the oppression of women. But I still think that 'woman' is a social construct rather than a biological fact. And biological observations have not always been interpreted in ways that affirm women's equality to men. But I've droned on about feminist epistemology before.

I find this really upsetting. You do know you are talking about people here, right? You are talking about my body, my history, how I've experienced sexism as a "social construct". I really wish I could cut my hair short, put on a mans suit and suddenly find myself proud recipient of a 20% pay rise, new found respect and no sexual harassment because I've joined the social construct of "men". Us women, just voluntarily choosing discrimination. We are so stupid.
Not only is your philosophical pontificating offensive to women but also to trans people. Whereas trans people experience very real struggles with how they fit into society and your so-called social constructs of man and woman make it sound like it should be easy. It's not. The reason its not is because man and woman are a physical class. Trans people can adopt the characteristics of the other class, with more or less success. The ones who "pass" less will struggle and there's nothing they can do about that. Because "man" and "woman" aren't social constructs.
I really hope you were just trying to be student debating society clever, rather than this is genuinely your opinion because its dehumanizing. Ugh.

Would you defend my right to identify as a black woman?

And the reason that the Gender Recognition Certificate exists, that transwomen have their birth certificates changed and are known legally as women, isn't because there is some scientific test that shows that they are in fact female. It isn't acknowledgement that woman is a collection of aesthetic choices. It isn't a reward for putting all that effort in. It isn't because there is something wrong with being a feminine male, or a transwoman. It is to avoid them being 'outed'.

Being outed is dangerous for transgender people because of male violence.

"And the reason that the Gender Recognition Certificate exists, that transwomen have their birth certificates changed and are known legally as women, isn't because there is some scientific test that shows that they are in fact female. It isn't acknowledgement that woman is a collection of aesthetic choices. It isn't a reward for putting all that effort in. It isn't because there is something wrong with being a feminine male, or a transwoman. It is to avoid them being 'outed'."

"Being outed is dangerous for transgender people because of male violence."

I knew all of that, but had never put it together like that in my head before. So thank you :)

Completely agree with the definition that woman is a female adult human. And that we need to keep this definition to protect women and to eventually win the argument in everyone's mind that women are 'real people' just like men!

But my heart does go out to trans people. The descriptions on here of women who loath their bodies is gut wrenching. I have a friend who is anorexic and she hates her body with the same passion. The difference is that she has doctors, family and friends who help her to love the body she has and to fight the part of her brain that tells her she is wrong. The trans community have a society that validates their body hatred and tries to change everything about them apart from that part of the brain that is telling them that they are broken.

Muffy, in a practical sense trans women are treated as women in some situations and not others. That's also true of five year old girls, gay men and elderly men.

I don't think in general people are many things because they 'identify' as being them. People can go around identifying as all sorts of things, but that doesn't mean other people find that meaningful or important in how they view that person.

If someone says, 'I'm hilarious, me,' everyone else doesn't generally add them to the shared understanding of what an amusing person is.

I'm not a trans woman because I don't meet the shared understanding of what a trans woman is, not because I don't identify as one.

I'm a woman because I am xx.

How I feel is human.

As a child, I was considered a 'tomboy' but struggled with that idea because I thought 'but I'm a girl'. Being inquisitive I tried to work out in the readers digest book how I was born a girl but should have been a boy. Of course, I found no answers there. But I did not have body dismorphia. I enjoy my female parts - vagina, clitoris, boobs as they grew. I just never enjoyed putting on make up or felt the need to wear heels. I hated the way I was supposed to enjoy 'girl' things and not 'boy' things and just ignored it as much as possible. I loved my baby dolls and cars and lego. I didn't see any reason not to and thought anyone who did were oppressing me.

As I got older (say 11 onwards) I became quite feminist without reading any feminist literature or hearing much feminist talk. It was quite natural. I became angry at the fact that people assumed I should be a certain way because I was a girl.

Entering my teens, that feminism then became tainted by other people starting to label me as 'feminist' - friends mainly. Especially male friends who later on I realised were actually quite sexist. They ridiculed me so I quickly shut up and hid my views. This was around the time my boobs grew and basically I became quite 'attractive' and suffered a lot of sexual abuse from men and women. It was a nightmare. I tried to become more 'feminine' to fit in but was laughed at for not being able to wear heels. I thought maybe I was gay, but never really enjoyed the attention of women or was particularly attracted to women. I struggled to fit in to an idea of being a woman. Men called me frigid or cold.

Then I had dc.

Then I decided I would put myself and my dc first before anyone else. And I liberated myself (and was liberated from unwanted sexual advances as I aged) and now I am proud of my thoughts about who I am and who women are. I'm a humanist. I see no differences apart from biological differences. I wasn't less of a woman because I didn't like being hit on. I met a man who is my equal and we think/feel very similar things and it just confirmed my beliefs.

Which were what I thought way back when I was 6: I am human. It doesn't matter how I act or how I dress, my behaviour doesn't change the fact that I am female. My xx chromosomes and corresponding hormones regulate my reproductive ability, but that is short lived (puberty to menopause) and I still had value as a girl and will do as an older woman unable to reproduce because I am human.

That's my experience. How I feel is natural. Any shame I feel/felt is cultural.

Excellent post Toptoe.

Jack the suspense is killing me - what is a woman?

I think at the heart of the argument is whether the biology affects behaviour and how.

So, does having a y chromosome affect behaviour in any way? Does not having it affect behaviour? That behaviour: can it be classed into feminine and masculine behaviour?

Do hormones play a part in human behaviour?

I'm also intrigued by the asd link to feeling 'different' or 'non-binary'. I have a very logical, analytical mind and from a young age would reason all sorts of things. I was quite scientific in my approach to almost everything, which affect a lot of my behaviour I think (more than my chromosomes did).

I think that's why I was into everything and also rejected pigeon holing, because I analysed it and it lacked basis in facts as I could see.

Leonardo da vinci was interested in the non-binary idea. Or rather androgyny. As was David Bowie. Both of whom were highly intelligent individuals interested in investigating what it meant to be human. They played with gender stereotypes and how actually both male and female humans could be feminine, masculine or androgynous.

"Woman = adult human female = vagina/uterus/ovaries/eggs/XX (even if any of those do not work or appear as usually expected)"

This. Biology is objectively real. Gender is a social construct. Using a very small minority of people with genetic abnormalities to argue that this isn't the case is absurd.

If a man can 'identify' as a woman, and that's all it takes to make him one, then philosophically we also have to accept that a person can also identify as black, or disabled, or even as an animal or a child, because internal feelings are somehow more real and valid than the external world.

Toptoe I disagree. I don't think it matters in this argument if hormones affect behaviour. Plenty of things affect behaviour, it doesn't change which sex a person is, or whether that person is fully human.

There aren't any behaviours that are exclusive to one sex or the other, so behaving in a certain way does not have any bearing on your sex.

Male word for woman is man. They are both gender and their characteristics change all the time.

Which of course they are not, because a woman is an adult human female.
Both the genders, woman and man are assigned to describe the male and female humans and the characteristics change. Breast are female and we associate it with woman. Penis is male but we can associate with man. You can also, have females born without breast because of medical condition.

Deciding that there is a philosophical significance regarding what is a woman is a political decision. Why is this a philosophical issue? there is a philosophical issue, not just with woman but with both man and woman. It's what we assign to what is woman and man. They are societal influences rather than something you cannot change. So when men where wearing high heels when men did. It would have been considered a mans foot wear but now we associate it with women.

Social construct in regards to this thread. it's what we as society ( people living together) agree upon as what is the norm ( what we deem normal ).
It is those things that are not innate or inbuilt in us as humans (in simple terms, they are relative = it changes with time, place and groups ie society) Every each society will have what they see as a things that makes you a man or woman. These may include things like circumcisions (it also includes FGM) both for both sexes. Those who mark milestones for adulthood, have criteria that you have to pass before you are considered a woman or man. Those who do not are either ostracised or not seen as woman enough or man enough. ( sometimes people ask men to man up because we are asking them to live up to a standard of what it is to be man. That is why the phrase is sexist). If woman or man was concrete and not abstract the same way sex is, they would not need social milestones as a way to indicate who we are.

It matters what the word means because particular physical things happen to members of the group called women - forced birthing, fgm etc and because so many women hate their own physical bodies.
That is why feminist who fight for the female sex believe that that the characterisation of what woman is or man hold stereotypes ( over simplified image of the sexes in form of gender) of what we are meant to be, do and like.
If we were not conditioned ( brain trained to think in a certain way from the moment are born) we would have less patriarchal dominance (a system where men rule ).
People who don't understand this should ask themselves why there are so any comments on Mn about why they don't want their little girl wearing pink, comments about the colour of bedrooms, toys and subjects in schools, maths. This would not be an issue if it wasn't an issue in the first place. They are things that hold women back.
They stunt the growth of women when society behaves in a sexist way. The problem here is that there is already a perception of gender of the sexes. women and men are in box with ascribed rules of behaviour, conduct and Aspirations.
By changing what constitutes women or men and believing that all women can achieve what men can and men being what they want (including not having guilt that they have to be the bread winner or act macho ) by definition you are making this gender fluid. The boundaries for things such, girls don't like maths, boys are good at science, becomes pointless because we would all be achieve the same standard. Everyone would be encouraged and developed to the same standard. When people say that vagina is part of what it is being a woman, I would say that it's not but its part of being a human female. When you get your menstruation it's because you are biologically human female and not just because you are a woman or man. Menstruation is not ascribed by society. It is a natural occurrence of the human female body while liking a doll by a young girl is social condition by us for them to be naturing to prepare them for womanhood where the female can give birth and raise future children to serve the male dominated society.

Which of course they are not, because a woman is an adult human female.

'Both the genders, woman and man are assigned to describe the male and female humans and the characteristics change.'

Okay quencher, I think we are almost there!

You have admitted that women are both female and human. Now you just need to add the word adult to your description and it will make sense!

Jack if you are still about, do you have any thoughts on any of this yet?

It matters what the word means because particular physical things happen to members of the group called women - forced birthing, fgm etc and because so many women hate their own physical bodies.

'That is why feminist who fight for the female sex believe that that the characterisation of what woman is or man hold stereotypes ( over simplified image of the sexes in form of gender) of what we are meant to be, do and like.
If we were not conditioned ( brain trained to think in a certain way from the moment are born) we would have less patriarchal dominance (a system where men rule ).
People who don't understand this should ask themselves why there are so any comments on Mn about why they don't want their little girl wearing pink, comments about the colour of bedrooms, toys and subjects in schools, maths. This would not be an issue if it wasn't an issue in the first place. They are things that hold women back.
They stunt the growth of women when society behaves in a sexist way. The problem here is that there is already a perception of gender of the sexes. women and men are in box with ascribed rules of behaviour, conduct and Aspirations.
By changing what constitutes women or men and believing that all women can achieve what men can and men being what they want (including not having guilt that they have to be the bread winner or act macho ) by definition you are making this gender fluid. The boundaries for things such, girls don't like maths, boys are good at science, becomes pointless because we would all be achieve the same standard. Everyone would be encouraged and developed to the same standard. When people say that vagina is part of what it is being a woman, I would say that it's not but its part of being a human female. When you get your menstruation it's because you are biologically human female and not just because you are a woman or man. Menstruation is not ascribed by society. It is a natural occurrence of the human female body while liking a doll by a young girl is social condition by us for them to be naturing to prepare them for womanhood where the female can give birth and raise future children to serve the male dominated society.''

No, you are simply confusing the words femininity and women.

Feminists fight for women and girls.

I wonder if Jack has a view on the pontificating by some people here?

So quencher you're saying feminists should be fighting for those who perform feminity, rather than those who are female?

What exactly would that look like? What would the top priority of such a movement be?

This is the World Health Organisation's definition, which I think is what most people understand by sex, gender, woman and femininity:

^What do we mean by "sex" and "gender"?

Sometimes it is hard to understand exactly what is meant by the term "gender", and how it differs from the closely related term "sex".

"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

To put it another way:

"Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories.

Aspects of sex will not vary substantially between different human societies, while aspects of gender may vary greatly.

Some examples of sex characteristics :

Women menstruate while men do not
Men have testicles while women do not
Women have developed breasts that are usually capable of lactating, while men have not
Men generally have more massive bones than women
Some examples of gender characteristics :

In the United States (and most other countries), women earn significantly less money than men for similar work
In Viet Nam, many more men than women smoke, as female smoking has not traditionally been considered appropriate
In Saudi Arabia men are allowed to drive cars while women are not
In most of the world, women do more housework than men.^

And here's a link to that:

apps.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/

Do you mean the category woman is unrelated to the category female it's is related but it's ascribed by us. We say what it is. Female is absolute while woman or man can be relative. ( it changes depending on place, time by people)

Woman has always meant adult human female the characteristics of woman, man, girl boy changes even though the gender stays connected to the sex ascribed to it.

You appear to be saying that a women is anyone who looks like a woman, unless that person is biologically proven to be a man. That is exactly the point. It's what we see and are taught to believe. There is no science behind it but society's belief system of what is the norm ( what a particular society things is normal ) for that group ie women or men. When you start talking about body parts you are referring to sex not gender.

Unless you are saying that butch/gender non-conforming women are not women because they don't conform with societal expectations and stereotypes? Do you think gender non conforming women are not women? I think you answered your own question here. Why should a female who looks more like a man should be called butch? It's because you don't see her as woman enough to be called woman. You have a set idea in your head of what woman is and being butch is not it. It's not your fault but society's conditioning of where to place people. And the reason why people say butch instead of men is because men are dominant and anything that does not live up to the standard of man is referred to as other.

Being a lesbian wouldn't save a woman/girl from FGM, rape, possible need for an abortion, child marriage etc. Nor would a female who identified as a man be saved from them, it's a female issue. That is why it has no boundaries because the things being affected are biological.