Feminists hate men

[GirlWithTheLionHeart]

What's your reply to this? I need something good to come back with for future reference.

Scallops I am finding your posts unnecessarily aggressive and rude. And yes, as a socialist I have been taking issue with certain tenets of socialism on another thread. No political viewpoint should be sacrosanct dogma.

Meph

Clearly child abuse is wrong, which ever sex perpetrates it. IIRC, you had some bad experiences as a boy and I am sorry for them.

Far more family annhilators are men than women and i suspect hatred/othering of the woman (and grouping her children with her as others that must also suffer) is behind some of that.

Far more family annhilators are men than women and i suspect hatred/othering of the woman (and grouping her children with her as others that must also suffer) is behind some of that.

I agree.

But I've seen it's mirror image, and that was framed and justified by feminist narratives and perspectives. As feminism gets more powerful, if those feminist narratives and perspectives aren't balanced by nuance and genuine education (and there's a lot of unnuanced activism around gender and identity in this modern age) its going to see a lot more people framing their abuse using feminism as rationalisation. This is why hatred against men isn't harmless.

I don't believe feminists hate men, because on this site at least I've seen the qualification of hostile generalisations in response to the statement that they were hurtful and offensive. People who hate don't care about the impact of their words on others.

" its going to see a lot more people framing their abuse using feminism as rationalisation"

Why do you think this?

"But I've seen it's mirror image, and that was framed and justified by feminist narratives and perspectives."

Are you saying that women use feminism as a justification for abusing men and boys?

I'm very confused by the concept of women using feminism to justify abuse. I can't think of how that could be framed at all.

Meph, whilst I agree that hatred of any group isn't harmless,, I don't actually know what "actions" people mean when they talk about man-haters - as you say yourself, the tendency is far more to discuss and explore, not hurt and insult.

Buffy it does make sense. As the discussion concerned the issue of feminists hating men it seemed worthwhile to make a point about kyriarchy and that power relations are not simply binary - but kind of multi-binary. Globally men have more power, but a man living on the streets has less power than Beyonce. I know this point is almost too obvious to make, but the point stands that you can't reasonably tell that specific man to 'check his privilege' whereas you certainly could reasonably say that to, I dunno, Hugh Heffner. Or thinking about it, you could tell the homeless man to check his privilege if he were assaulting other homeless women, but presuming that he isn't he has less aggregate power than many women privileged by socioeconomic background.

Likewise, in a phallocentric culture OVERALL men have more sexual power over women and that point should be made to a general audience; but you wouldn't make that point to a male victim of childhood sex abuse by a woman, because in that situation the conventional gender power balance has been reversed (or at least partly so) and it would be wholly innapropriate. Also there are some (albeit few) areas where patriarchy hurts men and benefits women. The taboo concerning male expression of emotions arguably contributes to suicide and the patriarchal identification of women as nurturing and maternal means they are more likely to evade detection of sexual abuse (or conversely the male is assumed to be 'up for it').

Sorry I don't mean to tell you all this as though you don't know it already, just to make the point that saying men have in general have more power than women is fine; but applying that rule across all contexts is problematic. Intersectional feminism is IMO opinion far more rewarding in that it integrates economics and race into its analysis.

John- is there anything that has led you to believe that the women posting on feminist boards have not grasped the separate concepts of "men as individuals" and "men as a class"?

Or, indeed, "women as a class" and "women as individuals"?

These concepts are among the ^foundation stones" of feminist discourse.

Meph: I have been hurt by women, but never in the name of feminism. I've never been threatened with violence by a feminist.

Bertrand: No, or at least rarely. I was just underlining the point as it seemed relevant. What is the prob?

John

Of course intersectionality is important.

The first and foremost thing feminism focuses on, though, is the liberation of women. It is the treatment of women as lesser than men which is feminism's concerns. Within that, of course disabled women, black women, homosexual women, Muslim women face more than one set of discrimination.

Jacquetta: Can I ask what you mean by the 'liberation of women'? Genuine question.

It is not feminism's job to focus on how a homeless black man is less privileged than Hugh Hefner, any more than it is Cancer Research's job to focus on stroke research.

None of this means that supporters of feminism aren't also supportive of general actions on poverty and racism as they affect men, just as I donate both to campaigns for girls' education and to a local hospice.

The prob, I suppose, John, is that you thought it necessary to explain it, at length, with examples, when there was no suggestion that anyone posting on here did not understand the concept fully. I agree it is important. That's why most (well, I say most, but I would prefer to say all) feminists are pretty au fait with it!

And, while intersectionality is important, I am first and foremost a feminist. I am aware that Hugh Hefner had more privilege than a homeless black man. As a feminist, what do you want me to do about it?

Well there are lots of other people putting forward arguments on here that other posters might be familiar with. We are all also writing for anyone external who reads all this as well who might not be familiar. I am not going to refrain from stating my case just because other people might be already familiar with it. I've never come across that objection for.

If you haven't seen this before, John, it might be of interest:

whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Beryrand: Nothing - or donate to a homeless charity if you want. I'm just making a theoretical point about the multifarious ways power manifests in a patriarchal society. Martin Luther King linked black oppression to white economic oppression. So a patriarchal society which demands men have greater socioeconomic status does, arguably, link to the disempowerment of homeless men at the same time as it links to the disempowerment of women trapped in subservient occupational roles.

Think what you like. That's my view.

It might be a good idea to do it as a "to anyone who doesn't know about this" or something like that. Because it did look a lot as if you were explaining one of the fundamentals of feminism to Buffy. What with you addressing her by name and all.............Anyway. Moving on. What do you think feminists should be doing about the inequality of privilege between Hugh Hefner and a homeless black man?

Jacquetta: That seems very simplistic tbh.

JohnJ80

Buffy addressed this point in her post. Honestly I am baffled as to why you felt the need to make a point which had been made and addressed in the post you were responding to.

Oh. So just a bit of whataboutery. That's fine. We all do it sometimes. It helps sometimes if we feel our feet are being held a bit too close to the fire.

John

If feminists don't focus their efforts on women, who will?

Anyway, once again, we've drifted a long way from the OP's original request, which was what to say in response to a claim that feminists hate men.

As far as the runner up in the Tory leadership contest is concerned, when she said it, I think it's very worrying that someone so fundamentally mistaken about a political movement and its tenets is a cabinet minister...

OP, tell them they've got the understanding of Andrea Leadsom