Feminists hate men

[GirlWithTheLionHeart]

What's your reply to this? I need something good to come back with for future reference.

Sorry, Lionheart, I'll leave him to it then. Sorry to interfere.

It's okay I'll give you all a break as I'm off to work. Will attempt to keep my posts succinct and relevant.

These are the sorts of behaviours - taking over conversations, making them all about you, explaining things that women already know - are the sorts of things that happen a lot in mixed and male dominated spaces, and as a result we have a low tolerance of it here

If something has sparked a new line of discussion, it's polite to start your own thread rather than make the OP's thread all about you and your opinions

Except when some feminists do it on other threads. Then that's perfectly ok. You can then just tell the OP off if they ask to stick to the conversation as that's telling women what to do

But this is off topic as the thread is how to respond to the comment that feminists hate men.

It should be some feminists hate men. And only men as a class.

I actually think very few feminists hate men. I certainly wouldn't equate separatism with hate - to decide to live life as far as possible just with other women is not in itself proof of hating men.

Again, I come back to my question about what is the impact on "men" if a few women "hate" them - how does that "hate" manifest, if at all? Conversely, if you note that the proportion of men who threaten, assault, rape and murder women have actively done something horrible about their hatred/othering of women, isn't that a bigger problem?

John, I know you're autistic, so I'll say this very straightforwardly. They don't want you on here

Get off, mate. Go do something else

I don't recognise your username Twibble are you new?

Anyway that was an incredibly rude post (please spare me the "women are taught to be polite retort). If any poster breaks guidelines you can report them to MNHQ otherwise it is none of your business who chooses to post where.

"Again, I come back to my question about what is the impact on "men" if a few women "hate" them - how does that "hate" manifest, if at all?"
For me, I've just got better things to do with my free time (given that I spend a lot of my working time surrounded by men) than engaging with men. They're just not that interesting or worthwhile.

If you're a feminist this is enough to get you labelled a man-hating feminist (and probably a lesbian as well). If you're a lesbian, that alone can be enough that you get asked repeatedly (usually by men) why you hate men so much.

And the conversation on this thread got me thinking about the many times a strange man has tried to talk to me in the street. You are not allowed as a woman to just have better things to do, be preoccupied, be talking to someone else, and so on (although mobiles and mp3 players have probably changed some aspects of this interaction).

No, I don't hate you, no you haven't offended me (most of the time), or been offensive, you're just not that interesting to me and I have better things to do/think about.

Which is, I suppose, about the biggest insult you can level at the entitled sex! Because hatred itself shows you how much impact they have (just in a negative way, but hey, some people aren't that bothered, positive/negative, at least someone now knows you exist!).

I agree Some Dyke. While there are woman who identify as feminists who act out hatred of men in violence, they are in such a minority as to be insignificant. But then, the number of women who commit violence full stop are relatively fractional.

I'm not a woman, but I should think what you say is true: some men do seem to respond very negatively to just not being acknowledged by women. One guy I was unfortunnate enough to know punched a woman in the face because she didn't want to have sex with him. Is this another manifestation of patriarchal psychology? As a central conceit of patriarchy is a value transference from female to male (IMO something that originates with systems of matrimonial finance), it makes sense that men react angrily to perceived rejection in ways women tend not to as much. (One woman I worked with did refuse to talk to me for about a month after I declined her offer of sex, but I never felt threatened by her)

However, there are of course instances of specifically not very nice women being rude. I smiled at a lady who had just joined my workplace recently, saying: 'Hi, how are you getting on'? She just looked at me coldly and walked on by. I should think she is just not a very nice human being. Obviously that is very different to what you are talking about which is strange men feeling they are entitled to your attention just because they are men and you are a woman. It must be shit to not be able to sit on a train with a book without worrying about dirty men bothering you.

"systems of matrimonial finance), "

What is this? The dowry system?

Yeah, and other ways in which marriage was financialised to the benefit of men I guess.

That's ok Twibble :)

But more generally the way marriage was instrumental in reducing women to commodities. It goes beyond financial bride price I think...

JacquettaWoodville

*I actually think very few feminists hate men. I certainly wouldn't equate separatism with hate - to decide to live life as far as possible just with other women is not in itself proof of hating men.

Again, I come back to my question about what is the impact on "men" if a few women "hate" them - how does that "hate" manifest, if at all? Conversely, if you note that the proportion of men who threaten, assault, rape and murder women have actively done something horrible about their hatred/othering of women, isn't that a bigger problem?*

Great post. I think I'll use this as it's true. IF feminists do hate men, they aren't harming them; they aren't raping murdering assaulting or threatening them or even harassing them on the street. So why do feminists bother men so much?

Vestal, just because some feminists don't agree with you doesn't mean they "don't count".

I usually reply with a bright and perky 'oh no, I love men - just ask my husband, brother, son and pals - but I do hate the patriarchy, don't you?' then move on. It is a question rarely asked by someone looking to engage with feminism, and the follow up usually involves something around bra-burning.

As I see it there are broadly three possible positions:

(i) I hate some men because they behave like twats, and as a result I'm mistrustful of all men
(ii) I hate men as a class because so many of them behave like twats, but have no problem with many men on an individual level
(iii) I hate all men because some of them behave like twats.

(i) seems entirely defensible to me, but, blatantly, doesn't amount to man-hatred. (iii) is pretty much the dictionary definition of prejudice.

I get the sense that many feminists would subscribe to something like (ii) but I'm finding hard to grasp on a conceptual level. There's a bit of me that wonders if it's nothing more than a bullshitty 'intellectualisation' of a cognitive dissonance. Can anyone help me out?

Sometimes hatred of men manifests as scars on the faces of children.

Sometimes hatred of men manifests as scars on the faces of children

what?

I have to admit (ii) does seem something of a conceptual contradiction.

I think there is SOMETIMES a problem with the way feminists move from the general to the specific - with how they apply conclusions about patterns of behaviour within a social structure to all individual situations. Of course the general does manifest in the specific, but not always; and even when it does it can be in very complex ways to do with multiple intersections of power.

Of course this is not just a problem for feminism, but any body of thought that looks at the world through an ideological prism. However much it is true on a wider level that women, ethnic minorities or economic classes are oppressed, when engaging with an infinite variety of individuals in daily life, things become more complicated.

What do you mean Mepistopholes?

Yet here you are on a thread telling feminists what is wrong with feminism. Have you gone onto threads of Socialists to tell them the problem with class analysis? Or threads for BME to tell them what's wrong with their outlook. Or do you just want to save your special wisdom for women, John?

Lass,

I saw another post on which John didn't take the hint and got blunter and blunter posts attacking him. As you can see from scallops post above, it seems history is about to repeat itself.

He also told us he is autistic on that thread.

I really didn't mean to be rude to John. I was just trying to tell him that this wasn't going to end well and he'd be better off not bothering.

Understand how it might be seem to be rude and interfering, so apologies to all. It really is none of my business.

Agree Buffy. I guess I just meant that there are two levels of perception - both of which have their place. As you go about life you notice patterns of oppression and inequality in particular contexts; but simultaneously you're just relating to individuals as they come. You meet nice men and nasty men; nice women and nasty women. But the ways in which they are nasty and the contexts in which men TEND to be particularly nasty indicates power imbalances. Does that chime with your experience as a feminist and a woman?