Can it be too easy to access a termination?

[LarryLobster]

I've always thought that terminations should be available on demand (within time limits) but recent events have caused me to question this and I wonder what others think.

I live in the most equal country around at the moment. Terminations are available on demand, no questions asked. I thought this was a good thing. But a few weeks ago my daughter went to the GP feeling unwell and was blindsided on finding out she was pregnant. She said she didn't want it and within 2 hours had been given the abortion pill. Now I question the ease of it.

My daughter is a bit vulnerable, she is autistic, and this pill was administered on her say so, so quickly that I don't think she even had time to process the fact she was pregnant. She'd tried to get hold of me, her dad and her boyfriend but couldn't. So she'd had nobody to talk to. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely support her decision either way but my concern is about whether she would have made the same decision if she'd had more time to process it.

I remember the initial panic and terror I felt when I found out I was pregnant and that was a planned pregnancy. So what I'm asking is, is it in a woman's best interests to make such a momentous decision so quickly or should a woman's right to terminate be restricted slightly for her own benefit?

Sorry that's so garbled, I'm just trying to make sense of my thoughts.

I never said you can't discuss it. Are the rest of us not allowed opinions back then?

and the the pregnancy was for your grandchild. This will be in the mind. Huge issues that you should have had a chance to talk over

I think the problem is the way we view abortion as a society. Everybody has a side, everybody has an opinion. It's so politicised it remains in the theoretical for most women until the day they have to make the choice. This a really common medical procedure yet we are not free to talk about it as such.

I have two friends who were anti-choice, they would never ever have an abortion on moral grounds... until the day they did. Neither regret their decision but both are very emotional over it. No wonder, from a young age we have to pick a side. We have to hear the arguments about it, the special circumstances that can occur, the horror stories (from both 'sides'). So when you actually have to make that choice it's neigh on impossible to make it on a practical, individual level.

All the shitty decisions I made in my life, none required counseling. Choosing a career path that leads to low income at best, unemployment at worst? No one demanded I think it over for two days and get counseling.

Consent to several X-ray examinations some of which might have ruined my eggs forever because I didn't get decent protection. Consent to have my teeth filled with various materials that might be bad for my health? No one demanded I talk to a counselor.

I am rather sure that getting an abortion would have affected my life much less than my shitty job decisions have.

And I did feel coerced with those X-rays - you go to the doctor, you ask whether your nose is broken, and are told they need to get an x-ray, you have to be a very strong person to say: "No thanks, your equipment looks out of date and I would rather get an x-ray somewhere else, if at all."

Yet we don't suggest it shouldn't be so easy to get those things, and I don't think we should.
At a certain age, one has to make one's own decisions and live with the consequences. That includes abortions.

Yes, some women regret having an abortion.
Some women regret getting into a relationship.
Some women regret having children (even though most would never admit it, because they love their children enough to not want to do that to them.)
Some women also regret wasting years of their lives on an university degree that doesn't help them get a job.

sashh I have had several operations, I wasn't offered counselling. I have had some unpleasant medical procedures eg colonoscopy, again withuot counselling.
My mother had two separate mastectomies and a hysterectomy no counselling.
Why is termination any different?

Because of the far reaching consequences depending on the decision made. The difference between having a baby and not having one is huge. There are probably plenty of other instances where a medical procedure, or lack thereof, has huge implications and counselling would be helpful.

To be absolutely clear: I'm not talking about enforcing counselling on someone who has made their mind up. Just that it should be available, and immediately (not via some generic overstretched service that would take weeks) if someone would like it. And it should be clear to them that it's available.

I can see where the OP is coming from with regards finding out you're pregnant and potentially being encouraged to go ahead with an abortion without a chance to think it through. When I was younger and would have wanted to abort if pregnant, I'd still have wanted 24hs or something to get my head around it. Others wouldn't need this so absoluely shouldn't be prevented from getting on with it. But it all depends on how the discussion goes; I can see it might be possible for professionals, consciously or otherwise, to encourage a decision one way or the other. And in the case of a disabled woman, I would be concerned about prejudice influencing their thoughts on the manner and thus their attitude. Are they picking up if a woman seems uncertain and stressing that they can talk to someone about it if they wish to, go away and think about it if they feel the need? Or are they the first to bring up abortion and printing of a script even as the woman says "yes" uncertainly. That's a bit extreme, but you see what I mean.

The OPs title is completely wrong, no, abortion is not "too easy" to access.

However, the question actually seems to be "might some women be encouraged to proceed with an abortion without feeling they've had enough time they'd like to reflect on the decision". Which is a different discussion.

As for PPs suggesting if you use contraception you would automatically have an abortion... I would use contracepion right now, even in committed relationship, but if it failed and I became pregnant I'd be unlikely to abort (ticking biological clock and desire to be a mother). About half the people I know my age with a child had them unplanned. Or coming much earlier than planned, I suppose it is.

I don't know how the medical system works in Sweden. But how did she find out at the doctor's? Did they ask her to take a pregnancy test there and then? And give her the test? Then they put her in a taxi to take the pill at a hospital? How did they do it that quickly without an appointment, do they have an open clinic where you sit and wait to have the first pill? There are normally 2 pills; did she get an appointment arranged for the second?

Just trying to understand what happened - as a pp has said, informed consent is not the same as ease of access, but this sounds amazingly quick even for a very swift and efficient healthcare system. I would have thought the doctor would have suggested she need some support. How old is she?

There are normally 2 pills; did she get an appointment arranged for the second?

There might not be one, there is no medical need for two trips to a clinic, it's just our law that dictates it here.

I'm not talking about enforcing counselling on someone who has made their mind up. Just that it should be available, and immediately (not via some generic overstretched service that would take weeks) if someone would like it. And it should be clear to them that it's available.

It may well be available, we don't know, the OP didn't say and I have no idea how the Swedish medical system works.

I'm surprised by the number of posters that seem to equate their experiences with how all women feel.
I don't need a woman to tell me how I feel anymore than I need a man to.

"The difference between having a baby and not having one is huge."

Yes, it is. But an abortion continues the status quo of not having one. If anything, "counselling" should emphasise how significant a decision continuing with the pregnancy would be, not try to convince women that abortion is a massive, life-changing choice with far-reaching consequences, because, for most, it isn't.

I don't think it can be too easy. In the case in the op, what barriers should be added?

An enforced waiting period?
A requirement to notify the woman's parents/partner?

Neither of those would be good changes for women.

And I totally agree with this:

an abortion continues the status quo of not having one. If anything, "counselling" should emphasise how significant a decision continuing with the pregnancy would be, not try to convince women that abortion is a massive, life-changing choice with far-reaching consequences, because, for most, it isn't.

Having a baby is a life altering decision.

an abortion continues the status quo of not having one. If anything, "counselling" should emphasise how significant a decision continuing with the pregnancy would be, not try to convince women that abortion is a massive, life-changing choice with far-reaching consequences, because, for most, it isn't.

Yes absolutely.

Also OP - you said She said she didn't want it and within 2 hours had been given the abortion pill.. So she did have 2 hours to think about it, right? 2 hours is quite a long time.

Assuming she is an adult (over 18), I think it is reasonable, indeed sensible, for the medical system to assume she is capable of making a decision within that time and without speaking to a family member.

The only potential issue with 'abortion on demand' is how much pressure there is on women to take it and deal with the physical and emotional consequences if there are any, and ignoring the role men can play in a) getting women pregnant and b) coercing women into an abortion.

Of course men also coerce women into not having them too.

Actually the points about coercion make me think. I wonder about the scenario where a pregnant woman turns up with OH and says she wants an abortion.

In that case I think there should at the very least be a separate discussion with the woman alone to ensure she really wants it.

OP what would happen in Sweden in this scenario, if you know?

Yes, definitely mini.

All pregnant women should be seen separately.

Perhaps this is already done like it is for ante-natal care?

The only person who gets to decide how long an individual needs to think before having an abortion should be the person having the abortion. Or can women not be trusted to decide for themselves that they know what they want?

There is counselling available in Sweden, free of charge, and the hospital should have offered her that option before abortion. This is also available after the abortion, so OP if your daughter is still a little confused, she can ask the hospital to be referred.

"No wonder, from a young age we have to pick a side. We have to hear the arguments about it, the special circumstances that can occur, the horror stories (from both 'sides'). So when you actually have to make that choice it's neigh on impossible to make it on a practical, individual level"

This is so true. From a relatively young age we're made aware of the 'rights and wrongs' of abortion. One really doesn't need to fall down on either side of the debate until such a time that they have to make the decision. And then it shouldn't be about rights and wrong, ethics and morals. All of that muddies the water when trying to make a decision.

I think the process in Sweden sounds great. My only question, Op, did dd have a scan prior to taking the tablets? My understanding is that they're not effective past a certain gestation so don't they need to date the pregnancy? Or is it all done on lmp?

I visited my gp two days after my missed period. I wish to goodness that I could have taken a tablet that day. I ended up being nearly 9 weeks when it al finally happened. Those few weeks were hellish and massively increased my distress over the decision.

Is the pregnancy a red herring here?

I have experienced being 'rushed' through a medical procedure. It was fairly minor, and necessary for my health - minor procedure but if delayed could lead to huge complications, IYSWIM.

I felt really quite traumatised after. I generally take a while to process things and the idea of a procedure bring suggested and then just done - then and there - was really hard to deal with. Yet, it was necessary, and may even have saved my life, I should just have been grateful right? But I still felt this sense of outrage at not having any space to register it...not at the medical staff, just mad at the universe I think.

If the procedure had been an early abortion I can imagine gleefully clinging on to the 'it's a baby!' and 'guilt' kind of dialogue that surrounds abortion in order to legitimise my discomfort. Maybe your daughter just needs support for the shock.

I've presented myself at a doctor's pregnant three times (in the UK) - each time, the doctor has looked me in the eye, and (and I can't remember the exact wording) asked me if I'm happy about it. Once I wasn't, twice I was. In the first case, I had to wait for a second doctor (I presume the first didn't OK abortions), and then a third to sign it off. I had to wait a couple of weeks for a Marie Stopes appointment, travel to another town, and by that time, go through a (small - it was still early) procedure.

A pill within two hours, at the local hospital would have been infinitely preferable if it were available.

As so many have said. The termination continues the status quo. The life changing event is having a baby (which is also, by far, the riskier path to take as well)

If she was able to voice the opinion that no, she did not want to be pregnant, then I don't think there's anything to be gained by slowing down processes to make that happen. Yes she may well be in shock and overwhelmed by events of the day, but that's not the same as wishing it hadn't happened. I hope she can get support with that and with the worries she'll now have about her proven-inadequate contraception.

I would also argue that if you're going to have any regrets, it's much better to regret an abortion than to regret a child, and it should be a conscious choice to maintain a pregnancy - I know many people view that as unnatural, but humans are beyond nature and let's face it, not dying out.

"Is the pregnancy a red herring here?" I think you may be right. Being rushed through any decision, especially a medical one is not ideal. And often an immediate, on the spot decision isn't required for a termination so it shouldn't need to be the case that someone is rushed through.

But if the flip side of some women not being rushed is others being made to wait when they are sure of their decision and don't need time to think about it, that's not okay IMO. Presumably there was nothing stopping the OP's daughter from asking for time to think about things if she needed it.

Presumably there was nothing stopping the OP's daughter from asking for time to think about things if she needed it.

I think there was - the DD's SN.

For a NT teenager this would be true. No reason why they shouldn't ask for time to think, to talk to someone, or why they should have to have this if they don't need it.

For a teenager who has autism and therefore may not quite understand how social interactions work, asking a question spontaneously that has not been put to her as an option (I am guessing she wasn't given a three or four way choice - with choices three and four being "do you want to think about this for a while" and "do you want to talk to someone, either a family member or a professional") may be more difficult.

(I am assuming teenager, she may be older but still quite a young adult)