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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

General Trans Thread Part 3

140 replies

mamamea · 07/06/2016 20:05

www.adn.com/sports/2016/05/27/at-alaska-state-track-meet-a-transgender-athlete-makes-her-mark/

"Wangyot posted the third-fastest time in the 200 preliminaries and the fifth-fastest time in the 100 preliminaries. The top eight runners advanced to Saturday's finals."

So Wangyot knocked out two girls from their place in the finals.

OP posts:
Clonakiltylil · 11/06/2016 16:29

Sixpence, I do feel that your questions are intrusive as well. Most of us are very reluctant to give any information. In my case it is also coupled with the fact that I have a very violent ex-partner and I don't want him to be able to track me down.

shins · 11/06/2016 19:14

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/11/gender-bathrooms-transgender-men-women-restrooms

Some great eloquent comments below the Guardian's latest bullshit article and not deleted either.

(I guess it's best to stay safe online and my daughter's age isn't important)

HermioneWeasley · 11/06/2016 19:18

Gosh, amazing that things which aren't unthinkingly pro trans are allowed to remain!

shins · 11/06/2016 19:30

I wonder if some kind of tide has turned there. The most recommended comments are the critical ones. I'm appalled that columnists can continue to propagate the lie that women don't get attacked in bathrooms but trans people do. It's bizarre.

singingsixpence82 · 11/06/2016 20:27

Ok, no worries, I'll try and cut back on questions of that kind. I just assumed people wouldn''t answer anything they didn't want to.

I'm not a genderist. I'm very much gender critical but I think there are areas in which there are arguments for making allowances or exceptions for the benefit of trans people. I have also seen members say in other parts of the site that they don't feel they can discuss certain issues or raise certain points on here and I think if we're going to make people more aware of what's going on we have to be open to discussion on points we are ourselves not convinced of. Which means finding some common ground on some points from time to time.

singingsixpence82 · 11/06/2016 20:33

Yes, I saw the guardian article too. What really alarmed me was the way it kept referring to women being "physically weaker" as if this was some sort of Victorian sexism, branding us as weak and feable when we were in fact the equal to men. No acknowlegement of the fact that women are demonstrably weaker, physically, for a whole host of reasons. I kind of felt it was paving the way for future arguments about women doing less well at sports for cultural reasons, because they just don't have the same confidence as men. Worrying. Very worrying.

Some of the supportive comments are from people who support the right of anyone to use the bathroom matching their gender identity. They clearly genuinely don't see trans people as being the sex that they are.

shins · 11/06/2016 21:08

It was completely and unforgivably ignorant of the historical link between access to safe separate toilet facilities and women's access to hitherto male-dominated public space.

almondpudding · 11/06/2016 21:15

It also seems to ignore that in places where women don't have access to single sex toilets, they're fighting for them.

shins · 11/06/2016 22:21

Yes. Or toilets at all, like in rural India.

shinynewusername · 11/06/2016 23:37

I wonder if some kind of tide has turned there

The trouble is that the law is about to change to allow any man who self-identifies as a woman to access all female-only spaces. So, even if the tide has turned, it will come too late.

singingsixpence82 · 12/06/2016 02:17

But can't we change the law back again? Don't they do that in America all the time when the Reds and the Blues finally kick the other side out of office? It must happen here from time to time? There does seem to be growing awareness but it's so frustrating not knowing how widespread it is since you just can't discuss this easily in public.

Cocoabutton · 12/06/2016 07:10

This is depressing. I have been mulling over it, related to the other thread on the trans* - feminism clash.

I was out yesterday with DC. There was another group at a nearby table with three MtT people. I am sorry, but, in the nicest possible way, it was such an affected, external caricature of womanhood by two of them and the third was less dolled up and loud, but had a very deep male voice. So, this caused me some reflection too on the liberal question. Apologies for mixing threads.

Because to me, I think fine, if men wish to externally present as women in public space. It pisses me off, because my actual experience of being a woman bears no relation to that external presentation, but, in a liberal context, their presentation as women is not actually harming me (or is it?)

Because that is the question, freedom comes with responsibility in the classical liberal sense. It is not about who has the most power to make their voices heard (neoliberal).

But anyway, it was the bathroom issue that bothered me the most, because I did think thank goodness I have taken DC to the loo before we went to eat. I very much doubt any of them would have attacked us, so that was not the issue. But somehow it felt like it would have been invasive, which is what I am trying to figure out.

I think the point is that classical liberalism was about access to public space; whereas the issue here is about access to sexed private space. shins upthread is right to point out the historical link. And bodily functions are private (and women's bodies and reproductive role) are historically and culturally at the root of inequality.

Cocoabutton · 12/06/2016 07:13

Parenthesis fail in the last sentence - DC2 waking up and yelling for meSmile

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 13/06/2016 19:47

Anybody seen this yet? Trans people could 'face rape charges' if they don’t declare sexual history, warns trans activist (link to Independent, some very good comments underneath).

Transactivists now want the laws around rape and consent changed because “By forcing transgender people to disclose their history to prospective partners the law is not only infringing their human rights it’s also reinforcing the bigoted idea that trans people are in some way abhorrent and something that people need to be warned about.”

HermioneWeasley · 13/06/2016 20:21

Yes, I thought it was a particularly self centred, almost narcissistic, article.

Do we know Sophie's orientation? Is she another TW who thinks she's entitled to lesbians' bodies?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/06/2016 20:44

From her photograph I suspect it is not terribly difficult for those women who are not interested in penises to discount Sophie fairly quickly.

For those of us who are interested in penises I suspect that as we're likely to want them attached to men Sophie's lady penis (if she still has it) and Sophie will be of equally little interest.

VestalVirgin · 13/06/2016 20:48

No one forces them to "disclose their history" by talking about it at length.
They are only forced to remove their pants and show their body before starting to engage in sexual activity. Which is something most normal people do, anyway.

I mean, seriously. Transmen cannot even have an erection the natural way, and I very much doubt it is possible to create anything that really looks like a vulva from male genitals.
The only doubt would be as to whether they are victims of genital mutilation or ... well, people who consented to have their genitals mutilated.

shinynewusername · 13/06/2016 21:58

Sophie's narcissism knows no bounds. Here she is complaining about coverage of Orlando Hmm

General Trans Thread Part 3
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/06/2016 22:15

To be fair I don't think they are the same person. The article is by a Sophie Cook and the twitter is by a Sophia Banks

shinynewusername · 13/06/2016 22:59

You're right. Two narcissistic Sophie/Sophias then Wink

poochiepants · 13/06/2016 23:20

I'm really split by the whole trans thing - in the past I have been very close to someone who is trans (MtoF) and have seen first hand the despair and upset that having this destructive phenomenon on them causes. It can be heart-breaking to be around. But then he/she has a friend who has hugely benefitted financially from a male dominated career (before transition) so could afford private surgery followed by expensive MBA courses, plus had the strength and know-how to renovate a house but gets upset when the ladies golf team doesn't pick her - neither can see that this person has reaped all the benefits of being male, now wants to be accepted as female.......having seen all of this, I just don't agree that sport should automatically accept trans women as equal to genetic women....

shinynewusername · 14/06/2016 07:31

poochie I think there is a massive difference between the aggressive and frankly delusional rhetoric of trans-activists and the individual suffering of people who are trans or believe they are trans. I had a close childhood friend who became a FtMT. His struggles in childhood were hard to watch as he really did feel she was in the wrong body. I am delighted that he is so much happier now, though I don't believe he has a male brain (no such thing) or that he is a man in exactly the same way as someone born XY.

Funnily enough, having been socialised as a girl, he doesn't try to tell men how to behave or call them TERMs for talking about prostate cancer Hmm

sheoneill · 14/06/2016 12:03

Found an interesting newspaper article from a daughter's perspective. Just thought I would post as I found it interesting to hear from her point of view:
www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/book-reviews/the-feminist-and-her-troubled-transgender-dad-34787186.html

HermioneWeasley · 14/06/2016 16:38

she the father sounds disgusting - abusive and narcissistic, with a clear sexual fetish (autogynaephilia). These traits are starting to appear over represented in the TW community.

WeMustSurelyBeLearning · 15/06/2016 00:51

Yes, trans posters on reddit frequently detail how they become aroused when trying on women's clothes or at the thought of being a woman (usually in a sexual situation, or while watching porn,what a surprise). Many posters will reply that autogynephilia has been disproven and that its normal for that to happen, even for "cis" women and claim some study or other has shown this. Eh, no we don't get turned on by getting dressed for work ffs

It seems that a large proportion of MTTs are fetishists. Just who we want sharing a changing room or bathroom with us Hmm

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