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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

I hope this wasn't a stupid thing to do!

141 replies

CaptainWentworth · 04/04/2016 10:48

I've just impulsively done something which I'm now having a bit of a wibble about.

Had an email round all the regional offices of my firm this morning, from the Regional Chairman, to let us know about some recent promotions to partner. As usual they were both men, and for some reason I was moved to send the following reply (only to him, not everyone!)

Hi X,

Congratulations to Y and Z.

I may be wrong, but (from a glance at the public web pages for each office) I think the new promotions will make 24 male partners in the region to one female. I’d be so pleased if that ratio improved in the future; I’m sure there can’t be such a lack of talented senior women in the firm.

Apologies if that sounds impertinent; I don’t mean to be – it’s just that the discrepancy struck me quite forcibly.

Kind regards,
CaptainWentworth

Have I just made a complete wally of myself/ labelled myself as a troublemaker? I'm a pretty junior minion around these parts so it's not like he will have any idea who I am- but he's prob thinking wtf! Blush

OP posts:
Original poster
CaptainWentworth · 04/04/2016 18:53

Everyone starts emails with 'Hi' here.

I didn't want to make it about me- and anyone internal can easily tell from my signature exactly where my position is in the firm and what I do all day.

No doubt it could have been worded better, but as I'm still in the office and haven't had a response I think I might still have a job tomorrow, at least.

And I am that person who can't resist saying something when everyone else is sitting in uncomfortable silence after a presentation or whatever...

OP posts:
FreshwaterSelkie · 04/04/2016 18:59

Good for you, Captain W! It was a brave move.

I think either way you gain something valuable. If the Chairman is someone who's able to reflect on feedback, regardless of its source, and he responds positively, then that's a win for you. If he doesn't, then he's marked your card about the company's ethos and your chances of progressing anywhere in it, and you now have that information to factor into your own career choices.

MatildaBeetham · 04/04/2016 19:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LyndaNotLinda · 04/04/2016 19:19

Good for you CaptainWentworth. I think that was a hugely shrewd move on your part. If you're in a big firm, it's the sort of thing that marks you out as a person of interest, unafraid to venture an opinion. If your senior partner is clever, he'll invite you to be a part of a working group to look at ways of combatting to paucity of female partners.

Kelandry · 04/04/2016 19:24

Well, it's done....but now you have a bit of a wobble, so if they do get a bit hurumphy over it, say you felt that lots of companies have been blasted on social media for claiming to be equal rights and then photos of the all male board members and you felt like the ratio needed pointing out. Just shrug it off if they press you, say you thought it needed highlighting but of course it's their perogative to maintain the status quo if that's their wish.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 04/04/2016 19:24

What is "constructive" about not pointing out how it might be perceived? OP asked for feedback.

If I were the recipient of it , and I am a partner in a large law firm, I would find the tone flippant. Maybe the recipient won't. I don't honestly know what the managing partner in my own firm would make of it.

Original poster
CaptainWentworth · 04/04/2016 19:33

This wasn't to the managing partner.

OP posts:
ApocalypseSlough · 04/04/2016 19:40

Good for you Captain

Nandocushion · 04/04/2016 19:45

I say well done too. And well worded.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 04/04/2016 19:48

Well done Captain, you've stuck your head above the parapet but some buggers gotta.

24 men and 1 woman is ridiculous, utterly ridiculous.

NeverEverAnythingEver · 04/04/2016 20:31

"Everyone starts emails with 'Hi' here."

Us too! To everyone wherever they are in the hierarchy.

slugseatlettuce · 04/04/2016 20:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox · 04/04/2016 21:14

Well done Capt look forward to hearing his reply.

BayLeaves · 04/04/2016 21:23

Agreed - where I work emails starting with "Dear..." are either automated emails or aggressively formal.

Well done for providing honest feedback. I wish more women would speak out in solidarity with regards to this sort of thing. My leader outright disagreed with me recently when I suggested that women should support eachother as we have it harder than men in our male dominated field!

EBearhug · 04/04/2016 21:25

I wrote a long reply at lunchtime, and then my phone lost signal and refused to send it, so I shall try and remember what I said...

It would be fine to send a mail like that at our company. They do like trying to work out what people at all ranks are thinking - not that they always listen, but they like to have some idea! I have sent a similar mail myself in the past, and ended up having a long chat with the head of HR, (I mean, it really was a chat, not a warning or anything,) things like pay and flexible working, training, all sorts - but particularly lack of promotions and movement.

And it does matter. I recently refused to go forward for a job with another company because they had only one woman on the board and none among the senior managers. Companies should be looking at why they're not promoting women. If they think they haven't any competent women, is there a problem with their recruiting techniques? Or do they not support women well enough, not give them the same opportunities men get? This is often the case, with unconscious bias playing a big part. Should they be changing their practices and so on to make things fairer for women? What are they doing about things like the pay gap? What are their policies on parental leave, on flexible working? Do they make an effort to ease people back into work after parental leave, or do they expect people to get on with it with no real support? Pretty much every company could do better on most of these things, but some companies need to do a lot more than others - and it all starts with people noticing and asking questions.

sixinabed · 04/04/2016 21:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AskBasil · 04/04/2016 21:44

I don't think this was a stupid thing to do.

I think it will either mark you out as a trouble maker, as some of the posters on this thread have said and if that is the case, then you know to start planning now to move to a better firm where the ethos is better, or it will mark you out as someone who has the courage to speak her mind to people who are her seniors, not just her peers and juniors and is willing to constructively engage in feedback, instead of just sitting there and sneering about how senior management gets everything wrong, without telling them how they're getting it wrong.

Well done.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 04/04/2016 22:05

Another well done from me.

The wording was good. Not flippant or disrespectful but polite and non-accusatory.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 04/04/2016 22:09

If your manager is a decent one he will recognise the disparity and ask you what you think could be done to address it.

It's about maximizing women's potential because otherwise you're wasting talent.

LyndaNotLinda · 04/04/2016 22:26

Incidentally Cap'n - I've worked at senior levels in Big Four firms for 20 years which is colouring my perspective. Law firms tend to be more hierarchical and old fashioned than accountancy firms in my experience.

VestalVirgin · 06/04/2016 23:38

Imagine me saying that it was heroic, in a tone that implies that heroes are stupid, and you have my opinion in a nutshell.

It needed saying, but you probably endangered your position by saying it.

You are a brave woman and I admire you, but I can't say it was exactly a clever thing to do.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 07/04/2016 00:11

I don't think she has endangered her position. There is plenty of employment law to protect her and this should not have any bearing on whether OP is doing her actual job properly. There's nothing in her email which could justify her employer taking any action. Employers don't actually want to get embroiled in sex discrimination cases.

Original poster
CaptainWentworth · 07/04/2016 15:42

Well there still hasn't been any response, so I guess either my email wasn't that inflammatory after all, or a PA has dealt with it!

I will remember this thread next time I'm tempted to open my big gob...

OP posts:
NeverEverAnythingEver · 07/04/2016 16:39

Captain I have expressed my views on gender equality quite frankly to any number of my colleagues (mostly male) at any level of the hierarchy and they are still speaking to me. I optimistically hope that they agree with me and next time there is a chance to make a different decision they will think about it.

Who knows? But one does what one has to do. Others must do as they must.
(Cod-philosophical statement of the day #3459.)

BarbarianMum · 07/04/2016 16:52

Honestly - good for you. At a ratio of 24:1 either your firm is unable to attract and retain talented women (which is a problem) or they are being discriminated against when it comes to promotion at a senior level (which is a problem). What other conclusions can you draw?