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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

I hope this wasn't a stupid thing to do!

141 replies

CaptainWentworth · 04/04/2016 10:48

I've just impulsively done something which I'm now having a bit of a wibble about.

Had an email round all the regional offices of my firm this morning, from the Regional Chairman, to let us know about some recent promotions to partner. As usual they were both men, and for some reason I was moved to send the following reply (only to him, not everyone!)

Hi X,

Congratulations to Y and Z.

I may be wrong, but (from a glance at the public web pages for each office) I think the new promotions will make 24 male partners in the region to one female. I’d be so pleased if that ratio improved in the future; I’m sure there can’t be such a lack of talented senior women in the firm.

Apologies if that sounds impertinent; I don’t mean to be – it’s just that the discrepancy struck me quite forcibly.

Kind regards,
CaptainWentworth

Have I just made a complete wally of myself/ labelled myself as a troublemaker? I'm a pretty junior minion around these parts so it's not like he will have any idea who I am- but he's prob thinking wtf! Blush

OP posts:
JeanneDeMontbaston · 04/04/2016 13:27

Why are we assuming that these talented senior women, who, if partnerships were awarded on merit would be equally in the running to the men who were actually promoted; either haven't noticed or are unable to fight their own corner?

Is anyone assuming that?

Why are you assuming that the OP's letter suggests either of those things? It doesn't to me.

Why do you assume that these talented senior women think junior women shouldn't be allowed to comment on what's obvious - that there's a gender imbalance? Why do you think those women would interpret the OP's letter as a comment on them personally, rather than on the whole situation?

Lots of leaping to conclusions, I think.

Shutthatdoor · 04/04/2016 13:29

Lots of leaping to conclusions, I think.

From both positions on this thread Imo.

Hamiltoes · 04/04/2016 13:35

I thought the email was great. Hope you update if you ever do get a response.

anotherdayanothersquabble · 04/04/2016 13:41

Hoping you get a reply. I think your email was a good one and deserved to be said.

(and I think Lizzie did call you a dick, couched in 'it's your behaviour I don't love' language)

And even if women get promoted into the vacated positions but still never made partner, your point still stands.

scallopsrgreat · 04/04/2016 13:41

Really Shutthatdoor? How are we leaping to conclusions - those of us who think the OP did a good thing? Genuinely interested.

I do think it is very telling that the first two responses to this were - how dare you raise your head above the parapet on this. As if there is something very wrong with pointing out an inequality when you see it.

SouthDownsSunshine · 04/04/2016 13:41

Good for you! I also tend to do things like this ...

I think there's a strong argument to be made that whilst they were appointed on merit, there is clearly something going wrong if the ratio is so poor.

Perhaps follow up the email with an offer to work with hr and senior management to review if there is anything that can help women progress to partner? That way you're turning a grumpy email into a positive.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 04/04/2016 13:44

Well, if concluding the OP wrote a fine letter is leaping to a conclusion, sure. Confused

Floggingmolly · 04/04/2016 13:47

offer to work with HR and senior management to review. Seriously??

JeanneDeMontbaston · 04/04/2016 13:48

What's wrong with that, flogging?

I accept we don't know the culture of the OP's workplace, but in mine, this would be possible and would actually be quite welcome, I think.

Kidnapped · 04/04/2016 13:53

Of course it is a valid point that you make, unless the Regional Chairman writes back and states that the you are incorrect and that there are actually more women than stated.

The only thing I'd change (for anything you may write in future) is not to lead with "I may be wrong but...". Just put "I have noticed..." or whatever.

Could you maybe think of a couple of things that might help improve this ratio? That means that if he does come back to you, you are not on the back foot. And reiterate your willingness to help the company in this regard.

Floggingmolly · 04/04/2016 13:54

Any HR Dept. I've ever known have been extremely averse to any outside interference, even when it might appear to be warrented.
An offer from a junior clerk to "help review their policies" would probably have them rolling in the aisles.
But maybe I'm wrong and they'll jump at the chance...

JanTheJam · 04/04/2016 14:02

I think it's a great email too and please let us know what the response is, even if unspoken.

You know DH was v senior in a multi national privately owned company based in Central Europe. It was an open secret that only white, straight males rose to the top. Absolutely no black men or gay men did. The woman on the board was a member of the family and hated by the rest of the board for being an uppity bitch - ie a woman of strong opinion.

I know anecdote doesn't = data but it is fantasy to think that no women were suitable for the higher positions.

GreenTomatoJam · 04/04/2016 14:05

Sound like pretty awful HR depts then flogging - or at best, jobsworths.

I've worked with some excellent HR people (and excellent people in plenty of other depts too), and to a person, the thing that makes people good at their jobs is being able to stand back and listen when someone cares enough to make a point, and then accept help/involvement if it's a good idea that will improve the company, or needs mentoring to achieve it.

The thing that makes a bad boss or employee is thinking they always know best and not knowing when someone is making an effort to make a change for the better.

PalmerViolet · 04/04/2016 14:14

I've worked with some excellent HR people (and excellent people in plenty of other depts too), and to a person, the thing that makes people good at their jobs is being able to stand back and listen when someone cares enough to make a point, and then accept help/involvement if it's a good idea that will improve the company, or needs mentoring to achieve it.

Snap, and it often takes someone from outside the comfort zone of upper management to be the catalyst.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 04/04/2016 14:23

Sorry to hear that, flogging. It's not the norm everywhere, though.

SouthDownsSunshine · 04/04/2016 14:34

flogging she's a junior manager, surely that's exactly the right level to engage in how more women can progress?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 04/04/2016 18:22

flogging she's a junior manager, surely that's exactly the right level to engage in how more women can progress?

Depends what and whom she's a junior manager of. OP hasn't said what the business is beyond it involves a partnership structure. If it is law or accountancy and if she's a junior manager in any of the support teams (none of whom will ever be partners) then her input is likely to be irrelevant to the career structure of the professional employees.

Professional staff at non-partner level might if they are senior "manage" a team of more junior professional employees but "junior manager" would be an odd way to describe such a working relationship.

Original poster
CaptainWentworth · 04/04/2016 18:28

Yes, it's accountancy, and I am a qualified professional. I was recruited from another firm as an experienced hire. My job title is Assistant Manager; I manage other staff on jobs and report to more senior managers and directors/ partners. If I perform well I could reasonably expect to be promoted in the next couple of years.

Why would that make me not part of a management structure? What should I call myself?

OP posts:
buckingfrolicks · 04/04/2016 18:31

what's the betting the company has a shitload of 'values' about transparency, inclusion, openness and accountability - each of which she is demonstrating in her behaviour. Well done OP and although the big boss may have an initial defensive reaction (because of his stuff, nothing wrong in what you emailed) hopefully he'll have the maturity to reflect and respond from a thoughtful place.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 04/04/2016 18:41

You have been rather coy about what your job and status was. You started off by calling yourself "a pretty junior minion around these parts".

Management structure, to me anyway, has 2 different meanings. You will have input in day to day delivery of the work done by some staff. You manage those directly.

You won't have input on matters such as strategy, assumption of partners, long term planning, expenditure , setting a budget, compliance with accounting and tax requirements, submitting accounts , paying taxes and NI, buying new equipment, leasing premises and the like.

OublietteBravo · 04/04/2016 18:42

Well done for raising the point - I hope it proves to be a catalyst for change.

I bet there are several of your colleagues thinking exactly the same thing. It is certainly something I notice (actually at the moment I'm noticing the opposite - a lot of the senior appointments are women. Which is brilliantly).

There is nothing wrong with your email. It is polite and succinct. It gives the manager an opportunity to think about your concerns and work out how to act.

I'd love to know what the response is - do keep us updated.

Original poster
CaptainWentworth · 04/04/2016 18:43

Well I feel like a junior minion because I'm just not very confident- it's something I'm working on- and because I was trying to sound light hearted (that was a bad idea I think!)

OP posts:
NeverEverAnythingEver · 04/04/2016 18:45

Have not read full thread but well done captain for raising the point. I wish more people would.

Original poster
CaptainWentworth · 04/04/2016 18:46

Oh and I don't particularly want to out myself! Thanks for the support, those who have given it- made me feel a lot better.

That's not to say I don't appreciate being challenged too.

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 04/04/2016 18:46

Sorry, but if you really did start your email with "Hi" that is not a very professional approach.

I don't think your email will do you any harm personally but if , you are indeed a junior minion he won't know from Eve, the tone is a bit flippant.

You could have started it as "Dear x" and perhaps briefly introduced yourself.

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