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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

The SNP and gender recognition

94 replies

Darrowisred · 01/04/2016 17:42

www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/03/31/nicola-sturgeon-pledges-trans-rights-overhaul-in-scotland/

Does this mean I can change my nationality from Scottish if they achieve independence? I've never really identified as Scottish anyway.....

OP posts:
chipsandpeas · 01/04/2016 23:29

Not quite 56 any more Hirples! They've lost at least 2, or is it 3?, in less than a year. At the current rate of attrition we can expect them to lose another 8 to 10 over the remaining lifetime of parliament...

and im sure those MPs who have resigned the whip will still vote the SNP way

AnthonyBlanche · 01/04/2016 23:32

This reply has been deleted

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Mrsfrumble · 01/04/2016 23:38

I'm really trying to get it Bombadier. Both pieces you've linked too seem to both differentiate then conflate "gender identity" and "gender expression". Then nonbinary.org throws in the expression "cross-dresser" too, just confuse things further. I guess "gender expression" has to be intentional, and my outfit today isn't a conscious attempt to appear masculine. So maybe I'd be agender?

Anyway, the discussion seems to be mostly about the SNP now, which I'm shamefully ignorant about since leaving the UK, so I'm going to respectfully butt out.

HirplesWithHaggis · 02/04/2016 00:03

The two SNP MPs who have temporarily given up the party whip have not been "very very naughty". There is absolutely no evidence of wrong-doing from either of them. Police investigations are still ongoing, (and it would appear, are of pretty low importance), no charges have been brought, no convictions.

chipsandpeas · 02/04/2016 00:05

havent ben really following the news but have they been found guilty yet

Behooven · 02/04/2016 00:09

Therein lies the difference between illegal/dodgy and unethical/morally corrupt

AnthonyBlanche · 02/04/2016 00:11

Hirples and chips, I admire your devotion and unwavering loyalty to the Party! I don't think there is any doubt that both of the MPs resigned to avoid having the party whip withdrawn. That's what MPs do, it's all about saving face for both them and their party when they know the alternative is being booted out. I think whatshername was in the news this week or last in relation to some further financial issues - something to do with constituency party finds maybe. Other than that I don't know what stage any police investigations have reached. I'm sure all will be revealed eventually.

AnthonyBlanche · 02/04/2016 00:15

And do you really think they would have resigned the whip if they hang been even a wee bit naughty. What'shisnameSNP MP was in the news this week becuase the parliamentary standards report over his failure to declare something was published. Strange that he didn't feel the need to resign the party whip while that was being investigated. Perhaps everyone knew that any naughtiness from him was very very minor in comparison to some others?

AnthonyBlanche · 02/04/2016 00:17

Argh typos, I'm sure you get the drift.

HirplesWithHaggis · 02/04/2016 00:25

I'm not even a party member. I just get fed up of endless "SNP baaaad" from (truly) desperate Slabbers.

Which is pretty much what this thread has become.

AnthonyBlanche · 02/04/2016 00:33

What's a slabber Hirples? If you mean Scottish labour I can assure I'm not one of them.

I find it Strange that SNP supporters are so touchy when people criticise the SNP, I don't notice the same thing at all with any other party. Surely it is a good thing that politicians should be held to account and we should scrutinise their behaviour? If you want to be an MP I think you have to accept that anything you do, or have done in the past, is likely to be made public. And the SNP should have done a much better job of vetting candidates, they more or less admitted that they didn't due their due diligence so,what do,they expect?

HirplesWithHaggis · 02/04/2016 01:02

You have your own agenda, Anthony, Slabber or not.

Absolutely, politicians should be held to account, and the SNP are not above criticism. Fair criticism.

Smears, however, are manky wherever they come from, and towards whoever they are directed.

VestalVirgin · 02/04/2016 01:11

According to that Everyday Feminism piece I'm gender fluid I think. Today I'm wearing jeans, unisex desert boots, a jumper from the menswear department of M&S and no make-up. On Sunday I'll probably wear a frock and some mascara. Hmmmm....

Do you have a link? I suspect I might be genderfluid, too. I only wear skirts, dresses and makeup for reenactment, which probably means I am female once or twice a year. (My body is female all the time, especially this one week a month, but biology doesn't matter, as we have learnt)

Do Everyday Feminism make a habit or massively oversimplifying stuff, or is the basis for these labels really so shallow?

I don't know, but how could one possibly be genderfluid in a non-shallow way?

Feeling dysphoria over one's body at some times, and some times not? And how would one differentiate that from the ups and downs one experiences with all kinds of psychological issues?

VestalVirgin · 02/04/2016 01:17

Oh, there is a link in the thread. Sorry, ignore what I wrote. It's two o'clock in the morning and I should be asleep.

"In complete inverse, there are other non-binary people who describe their relationship to gender as completely null.

This has been described as just not having any particular attachment to one gender or another, or that the entire idea of having a gender seems completely foreign and intangible to them.

Some of the common identities that go along with this experience are “agender” and “nongender.”"

Okay, I'm agender. Good to know.

SilverBirchWithout · 02/04/2016 01:37

I now this has been done to death...

However what FFS what does feeling like a woman feel like?

I have always considered myself a woman, I have a female genitalia and had periods then the menopause. I certainly have experienced 58 years of life as being seen by others as woman; been paid less than men, had unwelcome sexual comments and touched-up by strangers on public transport. Felt intimidated alone in a town centre at night, encouraged to do menial tasks like clearing up at the end of a meeting whilst the men talk about golf.

But am I missing something, should I be having feminine thoughts, what are they like? Feeling something special that's a bit girly? Could I actually be thinking like a man, how would I know? What toilets should I go in if I'm discussing football or wearing jeans and trainers? Hmm

Maybe being fearful of transwomen being allowed in female spaces helps confirm my own identity. Phew!

SilverBirchWithout · 02/04/2016 01:57

I actually do understand body Dysphoria.

Mentally I probably identify as a 5ft 6in slim 39 year old and I would find my life a lot better if others could just accept me as that rather than the 58 year old, overweight 5ft 1in body that I possess.

zippey · 02/04/2016 07:47

I think the SNP are one of the few parties trying to champion women and women's right. But they also want to champion everyone's rights, to create a fairer society.

But by doing so, they can't and won't please everybody.

HemlockSolanum · 02/04/2016 08:42

"It would allow young people to legally change their gender, with parents’ support if under 16"

This worries me.

PalmerViolet · 02/04/2016 08:42

I find it Strange that SNP supporters are so touchy when people criticise the SNP, I don't notice the same thing at all with any other party.

UKIP are pretty similar.

SNP were a protest vote, and a valid one. They'll do well in May, but hopefully Scotland will give itself a shake and vote more sensibly to get rid of the Tories in the next GE.

PalmerViolet · 02/04/2016 08:43

OH, and you can change your gender all you like, what you can't change is your sex.

peggyundercrackers · 02/04/2016 08:50

Hirples I'm definitely not a slabber - if you think that you've got me completely wrong.

Original poster
Darrowisred · 02/04/2016 08:57

It's the wording about recognition for people who are neither male nor female that makes me feel I have fallen into some insane alternate universe. I get that there are plenty of special snowflakes out there who don't wish to be labelled but by and large with a few medical exceptions you are either one or the other and to allow people to rewrite history and change the sex they were born with on their birth certificate is madness.

It's the direction we are headed in though. Don't like a characteristic about yourself? Say you're the opposite when it's blindingly obvious you aren't and shriek bigotry at anyone who doesn't blindly agree. Change all official documentation that negates your new reality. Silence and no platform all those who don't share your views. Plaster trigger warnings all over anything that might upset you and ensure that all you are eventually surrounded by is your unique view, however narrow and warped it might be.

OP posts:
BombadierFritz · 02/04/2016 09:04

I've decided that fully embracing the madness might end it quicker. My biological sex cant change but my gender (aka personality? Feelings? Emotions attached to a stereotype?) can so i am going to play that for all its worth. Well done the snp fof subverting the trans agenda

WindyMillersProbationOfficer · 02/04/2016 09:05

If this law would be used for people with intersex conditions, fair enough. But if it's going to be used for people who are 'neither male nor female' in the sense that some days they wear trousers and other days dresses, or sometimes wear a suit and a bit of eyeliner, it's an embarrassment.