How are we supposed to do ALL of this?

[cakestop2016]

Modern society is completely screwed up for modern women as far as I'm concerned. Why are we expected to go to work AND juggle all of the housework AND take care of the children's needs? Why haven't men caught up in assisting us? My DP is slowly learning that he needs to do more but why am I having to write him to-do lists, why can't he think for himself? Why does he fail to notice the greasy finger marks on the kitchen cupboards when he 'cleans' the kitchen?
why is it like this? Why does all the meal planning get left to me? I'm now seriously contemplating leaving DP and taking our DD with me because I can not live like this anymore.
what's the answer for modern women?

"I am not going to even think about asking anyone to clean the loo. How tedious."

But someone has to do it!

BoboChic, I'm not asking you to think about asking someone to clean the loo.

I'm asking you why you think men need to asked to clean their own loo.

You said you didn't want to nag a man to clean the loo.

Which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, I don't believe there is a woman in the world, whose ambition is to nag a man to clean the loo. Or even to ask him to clean the loo.

Why do you imagine that the default position, is that if a loo needs to be cleaned, if there is a man and a woman in the room, the man is going to need to be asked to do it?

Why does the woman not need to be asked?

Why are you refusing to engage with the question which has arisen because of something you said?

Are you going to engage with me, or are you just going to pretend that you don't understand what I'm asking you?

You are overthinking, AskBasil. I don't have a default position other than recommending that everyone outsource the cleaning of the loo.

Most people can't afford that actually but that's just a class/income issue and not really the issue for the thread.

On the post above about the husband who doesn't fold the washing right I am always interested to contrast that kindo f situation with our marriage. I was always happy to be regarded as the worst of the 2 of us at washing, stacking the dishwasher etc. I never felt I was better than he was or would remember tasks more than he would.

When eventually we could afford a cleaner one of the most helpful things she did (still does) is put the washing away. No one irons in this house nd we don't put things in an airing cupboard - I think they come out of the tumble drier or the utilty room drying rack things and then go in the pile for her to put away

The less money you have, the more likely you are to have dull things to argue about rather than solving problems by throwing cash at them. That isn't a feminist issue.

I'm not overthinking, Bobo, you're underthinking.

You are not willing to think about why you think that if you don't have money, men need to be nagged to clean their own toilets.

Also you are not presenting any particular solution, because most people cannot afford to pay someone else to clean their loo, do their laundry, vacuum their houses etc.

So what do you propose they do then? Or would you prefer not to think about it?

Only, this is the FWR section, where thinking is encouraged.

No, I have thought about pretty deeply and came out the other side a long time ago ;)

Isn't that the essence of privilege? It doesn't affect me so it doesn't need to be fixed. Even though without the influence of the privileged it won't be?

Feminism should speak and consider all women. And the fact that women tend to end up in lower paid jobs and can't buy their way out of the problem is a feminist issue.

No. The solution to problems in couples where neither party wants to do the job is not to fight about how to share them but to outsource them to a third party. If more people realized this there would be far less divorce.

Very patronising me but I would always advise my daughter to marry a man who is enlightened and willing to help around the house.

I do less than my other half anyway. I'd never go near someone who is sat around watching sport with a beer in his hand when there is housework to be done!!!

And again you're misrepresenting the issue BoboChic

This isn't about couples who don't want to clean their loo.

This is about couples who don't necessarily outsource the housework, where one member of that couple is exploiting the other member.

Pretending it's all about 2 people equally averse to housework, is disingenuous.

You don't want a solution, AskBasil. You just want to be a ranty feminist who blames men for everything.

It's also about men who feel that they have an opt-out on housework because it's not really their job. It's women's and they're happy to help, but they don't "own" it. Because they have deep down sexist assumptions which they don't realise they have in many cases and which the women they live with, aren't willing to acknowledge because of what it implies about their relationship.

You can pretend that outsourcing it solves the problem and to some extent, it may solve the problem of the dirty toilet/ carpet/ laundry, but it doesn't solve the problem of sexism.

What are you doing on the FWR section Bobochic?

Are you interested in feminism, or do you just come here to call women who want to discuss issues from a feminist perspective, ranty feminists?

You can highlight inequalities between the sexes very effectively by systematically attempting to outsource the issues in your relationship that cause discord. This has the huge advantage of putting a price on skills and labour and therefore measuring contributions.

Kennington why are you advising your daughter to marry a man willing to help around the house?

Why is it her job? That he only has to help with?

I advise my daughter that if she wants to marry, she marry someone who knows that they're equally responsible for the housework as she is.

Not just a helper.

But that's me being a ranty feminist, what with thinking men and women are equally responsible for cleaning up their own shit.

I am interested in self-sabotaging "feminists" who don't want to do the hard work involved in identifying and putting in place solutions to their problems but prefer to rant against men (so much easier).

The model of woman being the stay at home person who does all household chores while the man turns up to eat and sleep was post WW2 propaganda aimed at eliminating women back out of the workplace to make room for men returning.

It's a society issue, non a blame men issue. Men however are the ones who have benefitted from this model so are reluctant to give up the benefits.

BoboChic you haven't addressed in the slightest the point which has been made more than once, that most people simply cannot afford to outsource all the dull, boring bits of their lives.

Even when you outsource actually, you still have to do some housework. Unless you have a staff like Downton Abbey, of course.

BoboChic, it's not me that's implied men are incapable of taking responsibility for cleaning up their own shit.

It's you.

Your only solution, is to have lots of money and outsource it.

My solution assumes that men are capable human beings who can be be responsible adults if they want to.

The solutions are the thignsm any of us have done for generations:

1. Before you get close to the man discuss issues like feminism, equality, women working etc with him. Ditch him if he isn't on the same page.

1. Look at his own family background - I was pleased my daughter's husband's parents both worked full time in a profession so that is his background - women work and earn what the man earns and don't give up work when babies come. Look at how he is on early dates - does he cook? Does he clean up? Are you almost immediately having to do his clearing up? Look at his parents - does his father and all the family men sit stuffing their faces at holiday times whilst women serve them or are the men in the family as likely to cook and clean up as the women? Is he from a family of sexist pigs or nice normal fair human beings who share tasks?

1. Before you consider marriage/living together talk about who would look after children if you have them, what he thinks about nannies, nurseries, child minders, if he wants to be a house husband etc etc.

These things are not hard to do.

I haven't implied anything of the sort. You are projecting your own feelings on my post because you want to be angry with men. Ask yourself why you want to be so angry. Get over it. Address the problem.

And, no, of course most people cannot afford to outsource everything they don't want to do. But the very act of attempting to do so is a very good negotiating tactic.

Bobochic your argument was weak in the first place but fell conpletely apart when you fell back on the tired old chestnut of accusing AskBasil of man-hating.

It's obvious that AskBasil doesn't hate men. She is just asking you to address the issue of a couple who doesn't have the privilege (which you reek of) to pay for a cleaner.

Like most couples in this country.

It would be great if you could answer that question instead of resorting to cheap tactics.

I am interested in self-sabotaging "feminists" who don't want to do the hard work involved in identifying and putting in place solutions to their problems but prefer to rant against men (so much easier).

Well, no, because cleaning the toilet isn't just my problem, it's also DP's.

Now I can infantilise him, and outsource the toilet cleaning so he never needs to bother his pretty little head about it, but, shouldn't he be an adult, as likely to do that as me?

That's the fundamental point we're discussing - that no-one wants to discuss the details of toilet cleaning, and yet, women - even you it seems - are the ones that end up doing/thinking about it (even just to outsource) rather than the bloke.

I have a colleague who leaves her dirty cups on the desk every day, because she's too busy and important to clear them up like everyone else does

Seriously- can anyone get worked up about this?

I work in an open plan office. I'm still here , not actually working. As a little experiment I've just returned a book to a colleague's desk. She's on holiday for a week- there is a mug with coffee dregs it. I bet if I were bonkers enough to check the rest of the floor I bet I'd find others.