How are we supposed to do ALL of this?

[cakestop2016]

Modern society is completely screwed up for modern women as far as I'm concerned. Why are we expected to go to work AND juggle all of the housework AND take care of the children's needs? Why haven't men caught up in assisting us? My DP is slowly learning that he needs to do more but why am I having to write him to-do lists, why can't he think for himself? Why does he fail to notice the greasy finger marks on the kitchen cupboards when he 'cleans' the kitchen?
why is it like this? Why does all the meal planning get left to me? I'm now seriously contemplating leaving DP and taking our DD with me because I can not live like this anymore.
what's the answer for modern women?

So your message is "accept that you have to live in a shit hole and never be comfortable in your own home"?

If all that was wrong, after DP 'cleaned' the kitchen, was some greasy fingerprints on the kitchen cupboards, that does not qualify as living in a shit hole.

c) I think telling women that the only way to solve the issue of men doing whatever it is that is a systemic, ongoing problem for women, is by them taking their own individual action against it (irrespective of the consequences) and if they don't it's their fault they're "letting" men do it, is incredibly dismissive. Really amazingly so. If it's dismissiveness you don't like, try that one, how can you not recognise the dismissiveness in that response?

The thing is we do need to educate boys and girls,

I'm not saying just women rejecting men is the answer. But trying to teach men it's not acceptable, in anyway we can, teach our sons about sexism etc.....

Sexism still needs to be called out by women also. Boys need educating but it needs to be backed up.

By that I mean in general, Trying to make media recognise and use the word sexist. Individuals challenging casual sexist behaviour when they see it. Whether thats a college making a a random joke or something else.

I asked in a pp

If women don't call out sexist behaviour, who will?

I would hope other men would then start calling it out too.

But someone needs to start the ball moving.

*Colleague

I make so many spelling mistakes I know, but this one stood out

"So your message is "accept that you have to live in a shit hole and never be comfortable in your own home"?

If all that was wrong, after DP 'cleaned' the kitchen, was some greasy fingerprints on the kitchen cupboards, that does not qualify as living in a shit hole."

Bumbledumb, do you think it is an acceptable, loving and decent way to behave, to continually do something that you know really upsets the person you live with? Do you think it's the sign of a respectful, loving person and a respectful, loving relationship?

And also there you go again, minimising women's distress and minimising the discomfort of either living in squalor or doing far more of the domestic labour than is fair or reasonable.

Oh it's just a few greasy marks on the fridge. Because we're all Monica, right?

I'm not that great at cooking, however hard I try, dh is better. Dh is useless at admin/finance in comparison to me however, we still take turns doing these jobs, he doesn't moan or criticise my cooking, I don't criticise his attempts at admin. There are things that need to be done, we both need to do them and respect we have different ways of doing them. This is what you need to aim for op, you need to be clear or the imbalance will drive you mad.

You know, in every other area of life it's recognised that you should do your utmost to not piss off the people that you interact with.

I have a colleague who leaves her dirty cups on the desk every day, because she's too busy and important to clear them up like everyone else does.

It's no big deal, it doesn't bother me, but I find it bizarre behaviour and I know some of my colleagues are really outraged by it. She's been spoken to by different managers and different people have dropped hints about it over the years, but to no avail - she'll leave her dirty cups on the desk every time, sometimes over the weekend.

Every single colleague I have, knows her behaviour is wrong. There are different levels of annoyance with her from mine (zero, because I don't care) to the bloke who sits next to her (10, because he feels it as a personal attack on his space, even though it's technically her space).

The point is, it doesn't really matter what the level of annoyance is, she knows that it irritates some people and she still doesn't care. She's recognised as someone who is unwilling to do something really minor, to make her colleague's lives slightly more pleasant. There have been many conversations re whether it's her being passive aggressive, whether she means to piss people off, whether she's making a statement, whether she just forgets, etc.

People can see it in a work environment. It's crystal clear that there is something inexplicable and odd about this behaviour and people just can't get their heads around it.

It's not so serious that it deserves sacking, or warnings or anything like that. It's just odd. But the point is, everyone sees it and no-one makes excuses for her. They just dislike her for it.

But in a home setting, people just say "oh live with it, it's only a few greasy fingers". Yes, it is, but why would you leave greasy marks everywhere if you know it upsets those around you? Why would you do that? Why is it that behaviour that everyone recognises as really unacceptable and shitty in the workplace, is somehow OK at home, when surely you are under more obligation to the person you are supposed to love and respect, than colleagues you may not know in 10 years time?

Its about intention really isn't it? I couldn't live with a partner who didn't even want to try to help or do tasks with me. I always offer to help dh with diy even though he's a builder and obviously doesn't need it.

ILeaveTheRoomForTwoMinutes, do you seriously think that women who complain about their husbands not pulling their weight don't "call out" their sexism and raise their children in a sexist way? Yes, of course, I sit here on the feminist board on MN, write about radical feminism, but at home I am totally subservient and bring my hubby's slippers to him and pick up his streaked undies without a murmur of complaint while holding down a demanding, high-paying full-time job. Yeah.

That's another sexist myth - that "strong women" never end up in a sexist relationships. It works much in the same was as the one where "good girls" never get assaulted.

Mug woman needs a tower of dirty cups left on her desk. Whoever is cleaning them for her should stop.

Oh no one cleans them up for her, she eventually rinses them out the next day or whatever.

Once, someone put them in her in tray.

" But I don't underestimate the impact of daily evidence that the person you love, who you consider an equal, shows through his actions that he thinks you're his domestic servant. "

Yes. It's the fact that it's the small everyday things, isn't it. It's not generally big dramatic things that pull people apart, it's the imperceptible pettiness of stuff.

If you have sat down, and called out his behaviour, talked about how he is treating you and it's not acceptable, and he is not suitable embarrassed by how his behaviour has slipped, and then tries to rectify it.

Then I think you have bigger issues in your relationship, the domestic stuff is just a smoke screen.

I don't think all men are like this. DH has things he doesn't see need doing (planning for longer trips), while there are things I don't see doing and my DH does (cleaning the kitchen -and the rest of the house- properly in my case ). But I guess in our case I consider things to be quite equal, so it doesn't annoy me that I have to do the planning (I enjoy it). I think DH has the short end of the straw to be honest.

How about there is a bigger issue in society and not just my relationship?

And no, there is no "bigger issue" in my relationship. It's just housework and responsibility for it. Why can't housework be an issue in itself? Why does there have to be a "bigger issue"? If your husband beats you, nobody will (as a rule) say "your black eye means that there is a bigger issue in your relationship". Obviously domestic labour inequality is not anywhere on par with physical assault, but as an issue it works much in the same way.

I see as a big issue, if they don't respect you enough to sort it out.

If you think are arguing that it's on a par with physical abuse. Would you say to that woman, oh it's only a black eye, you should stay and work it out?

Because you are contradicting yourself in that post.

Either it is an issue of respect or its not.

AskBasil - I like men very much :)

I therefore don't want to spend my time with men nagging them to clean the loo. I'd rather pay someone else to do it!

I agree all men are not like this either. My father was tidier than my mother (who frankly didn't have much time for housework - she'd rather read) so growing up I remember him hoovering, emptying bins, emptying even the special sanitary towel bin he put up the bathroom for my sister and me. In my own long marriage my husband owned his own house when we met and I hadn't so he was teaching me things like how to work a cooker. When we had 3 under 4s in cloth nappies at night he washed all those even when we earned the same - for much of the marriage although we both worked full time I earned heaps more which also is a feminist thing - it really does help ensure power to women if you are all powerful God like higher earner creature.... well not exactly but a bit.

So I don't any child in this family is likely to end up with a sexist partner.

Also people differ in how tidy they want things to be. I have non identical twin boys. One genuinely is not unhappy if there is mess around. The other is like I am - likes everything in its place and clear surfaces. My mildly dylexic daughter is a tornado of mess wherever she goes (left home now) but even on visits you can tell she's here as things are just left behind her in her wake. These people who differ from the tidy ones are not wrong or bad - just different although I certainly accept that when as a class women end up with lazy dirty men who think becuase they have a penis and out earn women men can sit around there is definitely an endemic problem.

It certainly pays to marry someone with the same standards of hygiene that you have. Some couples are perfectly happy with mess piled high in every roomi. Others are both really tidy. Those relationships work well. Where people are very different though it's very hard.

Bobochic why do you assume you need to nag men to clean their own loos? That is a really strange and insulting assumption, do you think they don't realise that loos get dirty and need cleaning?

If dirty mug woman is washing her own cup the next day, I really fail to see why an entire office is getting so het up about it. I would struggle to give the tiniest little shit whether a colleague washed their mug one day or the next, it it was on their own desk. I do think some people almost seem to look for ways to be annoyed by others.

I'm not making any such assumption. I'm just saying that the very best way to deal with the cleaning of loos is not to do it but to pay someone else to do it :)

It's because it's not always the next day, if she's out on site or working from home or whatever, then she might not be in the office for a couple of days. It's also a semi- hot-desking environment, so if there's a free desk, sometimes people need to use her one.

Bobochic, you said this:

"AskBasil - I like men very much

I therefore don't want to spend my time with men nagging them to clean the loo. I'd rather pay someone else to do it!"

Within that statement (the therefore is a clue), there is an assumption that if you have a man plus a loo plus a need to clean it, nagging must ensue.

What did you mean by it, if you aren't assuming that men need to be nagged to clean their own loos?

My only position is that I have far more interesting things to do in my relationship that worry about loo cleaning. I am not going to even think about asking anyone to clean the loo. How tedious.