Why are men so turned off by women with short hair?

[MissTessmacher]

Just idly musing.

I recently cut my hair quite drastically. Changed my photo on OLD to one with the new do (previous photo was very glam/pin-up style with shoulder length hair).

I've gone from a very steady average of 10-15 messages a day to zero .

It's not the first time I've observed this phenomenon. The few times before I've cut my hair very short I have noticed it's like a cloak of invisibility when it comes to men.

Anyone care to enlighten me? Is it because women with short hair are considered unfeminine? (What a crock of shit if so).

I'm sorry, lass, I didn't realise you were a butch dyke.

There's a whole industry out there delegating the task to other women

There are several women on this thread happily judging other women.

Though, in the interests of fairness, you know somedyke was quoting another poster when she referred to someone looking like 'the male in a lesbian relationship, right?

I didn't see the bit where she described having short hair as looking like a 'butch dyke'.

I m sorry, lass, I didn't realise you were a butch dyke.

I take it that is meant to be sarcastic? I am not a lesbian. For the record I personally would not call any one a "butch dyke" but a poster on here is happy to use those terms about herself.

Apparently however using the terminology which another poster has used, and which you had no objection to her using, ceases to be acceptable, despite the fact I was clearly referring back to SomeDykes post.

For myself, initially it was probably a desire not to conform to (at least), the straight world. But after a while, the sheer ease of upkeep won out! Whilst on benefits, a shaved or clipped head meant no need for shampoo, and why keep paying even a barber (who used to be much cheaper than a ladies hairdresser, but that is another story!), when doing it yourself was cheaper. Plus I just got to like the way it felt when I rub my head. Hence why I haven't changed it for the last umpteen years.

When you don't conform, then you probably notice more the pressures there are trying to make you conform. Being mistaken for a bloke whilst walking into the ladies (including one famous occasion where I was chased into the loos at Charles de Gaulle airport whilst desperate for a proper loo!) is just one way. It's not that I do particularly look like a bloke, just that most people only have to glimpse a bit of bald head, and gender therefore determined!

The precise ways that socialisation acts may be complicated, but the results, in terms of the fairly major split between what is considered appropriate female and male grooming, is pretty simple.

No Jeanne you saw my name and thought get a little dig in.

Eh? Your name isn't rude.

And my point - I thought it was obvious - was that there's a difference between someone using a slur to describe themselves, and using it to describe someone else.

Have you never come across that idea before?

If so, I apologise. And what I was getting at was that it is quite rude to replicate offensive terms when you have no stake in them. I didn't realise you did it out of ignorance.

some - I dunno if that's true? I wonder if we're not conditioned to imagine that a look is 'low upkeep' if it's stereotypically masculine, and high maintenance if it's the reverse? After all, we clearly fall into those fallacies all the time.

Just to clarify, I was quoting someone else who referred to "'the male in a lesbian relationship". Just because I really, really resent the idea that one has to be 'the male', or the dominant partner, or the one who does the DIY, or the one who earns the most, or whatever other gender stereotypes you want to sling in. Or that a relationship needs one who is/acts 'male', and one who is/acts 'female'. Or that lesbian relationships need to somehow ape heterosexual ones.................

I know what the original poster probably meant, who maybe thought the word butch was offensive, or maybe just didn't know it? :-)

To be frank, being butch (in terms of not doing traditional femininity) does often get you tagged as looking like a chap, or being mistaken for a chap, no matter how big your boobs are!

Anyway, I'm totally okay with dyke (but some aren't!), butch, bulldyke, lesbian (Oh, but not lezzers, yuck!), even sapphist if you're in a victorian mood :-). But for everyday use, lesbian usually okay -- I personally don't like 'gay woman', because too often, gay gets taken to mean just gay men. And lesbian has more womens history in it than gay.

I know you were quoting, and I stand by your objections.

And I agree with you about 'gay'.

I would add, there are lesbians who don't conform to heterosexual stereotypes and also don't appreciate 'butch' as a term. Not everyone does.

If so, I apologise. And what I was getting at was that it is quite rude to replicate offensive terms when you have no stake in them. I didn't realise you did it out of ignorance

You really cannot see why I referrred to terms which have already been used in a way to contrast them with the way other women were being castigated for socialisation? You assume either ignorance or a wish to cause offence? It's a literary device.

I've no idea what you mean by my name being rude. It's a name I use all the time. I assumed you recognised and did the not uncommon response of" let's see if a fault can be found"

"I wonder if we're not conditioned to imagine that a look is 'low upkeep' if it's stereotypically masculine, and high maintenance if it's the reverse?'

I think that's a second twist, that males aren't supposed to spend time and thought on their appearance, and women are? But spending hours doing your hair seems seems specifically linked to women, or drag queens. Along with the oft-repeated 'why do women take so long to get ready?'. It may not be true, but it is supposed to be true, if you see what I mean!

How do you feel about "invert", somedyke if you're being historical.

I belong to a generation where "dyke" was incredibly offensive. I'm glad you've reclaimed it- but I can't actually bring myself to say it. My mouth won't let me.

lass, I'm not clear which 'literary device' you think this is.

If you read my post carefully, you'd see I said that I did not find your name rude. Perhaps that's where the confusion lies?

But the fact remains that you used a derogatory term, which does not refer to you, in a way many would find offensive. It's as bertrand says - the difference between reclaiming a term, and using it casually, is huge.

some - YY, absolutely!

Don't we all just want to make ourselves as attractive as possible? Isn't that normal?
When we were young and 'out there' didn't we all do our best to attract the opposite sex? ( or same sex ) & if we feel more attractive with long hair ( which I do ) then what's the problem?
I have beautiful long hair which I absolutely love, I'd never cut it short just to prove a point ( a point I probably don't even understand )

& trust me, I know plenty of men who spend an awful lot of time on their hair

I don't buy any of this "we are conditioned to think..." as not ALL women want long hair (ergo not ALL women were conditioned to think the same)

I don't believe in easy brainwashing.

Saying that, part of it is fashion. Back in the 80s I always had a short bob, which I thought (think) was an attractive haircut (short enough to have neck shaved a bit ).

There is not as much variety in young women's hair as there was in the 80s. It does seem as if almost all girls want long hair now. It also seems as if todays young people are a lot more conformist than we were, in terms of looks. Maybe I am wrong? We used to have all these "tribes" (punks, rockers, preppy, alternative, goth etc.)

Is it partly conformism and part fashion? It is so boring, everyone with the same hair!

If you read my post carefully, you'd see I said that I did not find your name rude. Perhaps that's where the confusion lies?

I have no idea what you mean by this. I never said you did. I literally have no idea what you are taking about.

But the fact remains that you used a derogatory term, which does not refer to you, in a way many would find offensive.

It was in response to the posts suggesting some form of moral superiority for short hair- prompted by somedykes high- handed dismissal-

"How about feminism being about freedom of choice?" Cos that's not feminism, just some sort of wishy-washy liberalism.

followed up by

For whom are you doing all this? Because to be utterly frank, the women concerned don't seem to be getting much enjoyment out of all this effort

But hey, as a little academic proto-dyke, maybe I somehow skipped the 'how to do girl properly' stuff at school

Does "a little academic proto-dkye" get a free pass on rubbishing other women? Rubbishing their choices as "wishy washy "?

It's this horrible "I'm so enlightened and non- conforming" but "you girlies can't see past your social conditioning"

I find it really, really offensive.

Well, confusion all around, then.

You said: I've no idea what you mean by my name being rude. I merely pointed out I didn't 'mean' anything by your name being rude, since I'd never said it was!

I didn't read some as rubbishing other women, though I do disagree with her slightly. I don't think that makes it acceptable to imply that short hair is a 'butch dyke' look.

I don't know who you're quoting with the 'you girlies' comment? I've searched the whole thread and can only conclude you're either quoting from another thread, or making up a quotation to pretend something has been said that hasn't. I assure you, it's nothing I would say.

Lass- are you saying that every choice everyone makes is a completely free choice with no input from social conditioning at all? That there is no societal "expectation" on women to look and behave in particular ways?

"I don't buy any of this "we are conditioned to think..." as not ALL women want long hair (ergo not ALL women were conditioned to think the same)"

No, not all women want long hair, but those who don't might be rejecting the same thing that some of those who want long hair are going for - the idea that it's more feminine or more glamorous so those who don't want long hair are still being conditioned if you see what I mean.

Jeanne you said Eh? Your name isn't rude

I have not the foggiest idea what you are on about. You started talking about "rude" . I have no idea where you got that from or what point you are trying to make.

I don't know who you're quoting with the 'you girlies' comment? I've searched the whole thread and can only conclude you're either quoting from another thread, or making up a quotation to pretend something has been said that hasn't. I assure you, it's nothing I would say.

You really interpreted that as a direct quote?

I was not quoting any one. It was my interpretation, and I accept ,a simplification, of how this thread appears to me. As if that writing technique has never been used ever before on MN.

This thread has had men who like women with long hair being called thick (or similar wording)

It's had somedyke's and (others) dismissals of other women. She asked "who are you doing it for?" The implication, presumably it couldn't possibly be for their own selves.

Bertrand of course I couldn't possibly believe I have free will- how could I? After all my poor little brain turned to mush learning all the girly stuff. Still it must make "proto-academic dykes" feel good about how fabulously individual they are.

I'm really confused now.

I haven't seen anyone call women with long hair thick.

I'm sorry, I'm just not bright enough for this conversation.

I haven't seen anyone call women with long hair thick.

I expect you are confused because I didn't say that. What I said was

This thread has had men who like women with long hair being called thick (or similar wording)

At the start of the thread this comment was made

Also there is significant overlap between men who dislike short hair on women, and those who think that women with small boobs / athletic builds look like men

I imagine there's a lack of intellect involved

This thread is exactly what puts me off defining as a feminist. The smugness of criticising other women's choices ("wishy washy" "girly") , the assumption of superiority in doing so.

"This thread is exactly what puts me off defining as a feminist. The smugness of criticising other women's choices ("wishy washy" "girly") , the assumption of superiority in doing so."

The quotes you give suggest that men who like women with long hair are thick, not the women with long hair!

"Bertrand of course I couldn't possibly believe I have free will- how could I? After all my poor little brain turned to mush learning all the girly stuff. Still it must make "proto-academic dykes" feel good about how fabulously individual they are"

We are all influenced by societal pressures and expectations! All of us. None of us make choices in a vacuum. It is ridiculous to suggest we do.