I would like your opinion on something...

[UnicornsRuleAll]

I am a trans-women, I was born with the male physical body, but always identified as female, did everything commonly associated with "Female" Anyway, I have been told that I should not be allowed to use the female bathroom.

I was just wondering if you agree with this? My gender on my passport is female, I'm attracted to men, I look nothing like a man, yet people are trying to force me into their bathroom regardless, what is your position on the issue?

Lurcio

So what can we do? I'm old now and had been happy to hand on the feminist torch to the younger generations of women. But I'm not altogether happy about how some of them are carrying it.

Lurcio - you're totally right. I read the Handmaids tale at school and back then it was a story. I re-read it a couple of years ago having grown up and had kids, and it was a horrifyingly possible future - barely dystopian, since every single element of it is happening to women now, somewhere in the world.

Interesting catch Lass (this is hovering on the edge of the rules) - I'm late 30s and think in metres for distances like that (miles for longer, and the most convenient one for shorter measurements - I'm the crossover generation clearly!)

I don't know what can be done about that though - we were all young and idealistic and naive once, then we slowly lose that.

Hairy, I promise that I will always pass spare loo roll under the wall if you need it. I cannot promise not to giggle a bit if you're sharing a cubicle with a couple of talkative toddlers narrating what's going on, asking awkward questions, and trying to open the door to show everyone.

Find the ones who do share your values and work with them. They are out there, don't worry!

Great thread, even if not what the OP intended.

Something I've wondered for ages- where are the trans campaign s for unisex toilets, changing rooms etc? Each with a separate door and sink, so no sharing with anyone. It seems so obvious as a solution that I don't know why we're not seeing demands for that. Or maybe I have just missed them.

In answer to the original question, personally it wouldn't bother me to see a transwoman in the ladies- someone who wants to pass as female. But it would bother me to walk in and see a huge man with a beard who says 'I'm a woman because I feel like a woman'. And if I was to walk in and see 2 or 3 of these kind of 'transwomen' I would feel very uneasy indeed and would walk out. The problem is, how do you say this TW is ok, but this one is not?

Unisex facilities are the way to go.

I think you don't see that campaign because unisex facilities don't give the validation they crave. It's not about having a safe space to pee, it's about having others agree that they are women just like actual women.

Yes. Specific facilities for trans people would seem to be the logical answer.

But as I said in my earlier posts. Loos are a metaphor.

Loos are a metaphor.

Quite, it's never about the loos.

It's about the need for validation of their ladyness from women.

Riders there are some younger women who are carrying the radical torch. They also despair of the way their generations 'feminists' are flag waving for men's rights.

I am only in favour of unisex facilities if there are also separate facilitates for women and men

at times I only want to be around women and girls I really do not have to explain why

so yes I do object to transwomen using womens only spaces whatever they are

obviously if I can't tell then I cant tell but I have yet to meet (and see on tv) a transwomen that does not raise some sort of suspicion

as a woman I have been under threat many times by men, I have felt threatened even if there was no threat and I can often sense something is not right because I have to be more aware I am physically weaker. I may have been getting a look from a man that has made me uncomfortable yet when I have spoken to a partner or male friend about it they don't get it he seemed nice, what did he do I can't always explain but it is there. I think most women and girls will pick up on a trans women even if they pass as you say that something is different what they may not be quite sure and some will feel uncomfortable with that

now for the rights of a very very few transwomen in our society to feel more comfortable I am not willing to ignore women and girls feelings uncomfortable

I'm with those that don't have a problem with it because you have no external male sexual organs. I went for years thinking that a transwoman was a man who hated his male body and the male expectations and all that jazz. Now I am confused. In the case of womens spaces I guess my big question is this -

If we are just using self identification to allow access to womens spaces why stop at identifying as a woman? If a man demands access to womans spaces why can't he just say "I'm not a pervert/abuser/a person who harms women"?

If a man demands access to womans spaces why can't he just say "I'm not a pervert/abuser/a person who harms women"?

I'm not sure if you're being serious or not.

I think it's a good point that male entitlement can't be surgically removed. OP probably thinks that's nasty comment but give it ten years of living as a woman and she'll have dealt with so many more situations where she just has to yield to what men want OR be seen to be making a scene, that maybe then it will be more comprehensible.

I also agree with the comment ''toilets are not the hill I want to die for'' (sorry for the misquote, can't see the comment now).

I am serious.

As I understood it we have women's spaces for two reasons. 1) To keep women safe from men. 2) To make women feel safe from men. It seems to me that as we move towards a system of self identification we (as a society) will be abandoning the second reason altogether. To achieve 1 we will be asking people to self identify as a woman and relying on their word.

I meant to say A trans woman using the ladies' loo would not bother me in my last post.

Well, the OP is obviously lying. But it's still an interesting thread, which is completely bypassing the OP.

The point about passing privilege is very interesting. I have never known a TW who passes - but if I'd ever encountered one who did, then by definition I wouldn't know it.

I can see the logic that goes, "Well, some TW can use women's loos/shelters/whatever without anyone being any the wiser, because they're lucky enough to be short/small-framed/whatever. Isn't it unfair that I can't, just because I'm 6'4 and transitioned late so have a massive Adam's apple?" But then the leap from that to, "Isn't it unfair that I can't, just because I have a beard and a penis?" is not that great.

I would have no issue with you using the women's bathroom.

The only issue I have with trans-women is when there's a narrative used around understanding how it is to be a woman. Trans-women have their own significant challenges and may have some insight into the challenges that women face but it's not the same.

I actually think it's vital that it is left to stand. I presume it was started by a goady fucker (and a lying one at that -there are holes in their story so big you could drive a bus through them) with the intention of showing what evil TERFs we are. I suspect OP has already taken screen grabs of carefully selected quotes stripped of their context and placed them on tumblr or wherever. If this thread goes pfft all evidence that comments have been taken out of context will be gone.

I would however remind people to be careful that they don't post enough detail about themselves that they could be doxxed.

Going to report my own post so MNHQ can see both sides.

I'll tell you what. If you totally pass as a woman and none of us would ever guess you have penis, and once you tell people they call you a pardon, how about you just stop telling people?

Shut up about it. If you insist you are a woman and you pass easily as a woman why are we even needing to have the discussion?

Paedo not pardon!

I'm guessing the OP won't be back then, after someone worked out that his/her dates don't work.

I'm starting to get quite good at recognizing the 'overly reasonable, but quickly tipping into passive aggressive' tone these trolls use. I'd like to know their motivation though...

I don't know YouGotta- I reckon a genuine transactivist would not be so careless with the facts. Perhaps it's one of Maria Miller's lackeys, or a lazy journalist/ blogger? Anyway , I'm fairly sure the OP realises that he/she/they has/have been rumbled and he/she/they is/are staying away.

I think the problem is that world has fallen in line with accepting the notion that surgically/hormally/psychologically altered male = female, that belonging to the female sex simply means 'not male' . Women have our own biological functions that are not defined by the presence or lack of a penis.

I would fully support transpeople in a campaign to have additional facilities (refuges/ counselling services/ toilets/changing facilities/ hospital facilities/ prison cells) provided, so that they do not have to use a space in which they feel unsafe or make others feel unsafe.

Perhaps the answer is to legally recognise a third option, so that people can declare that their sex and perceived gender do not match, and use the third option for facilities that are otherwise separated by sex. That would mean that there's no need to argue about how far along the transitioning journey a transperson is- an option totally free from limitations of biological sex is available.

Given that women's refuges and support groups have had huge funding cuts, and women are paying for these services via the tax on sanitary protection, perhaps we could set up a funding system so that transpeople identifying as women but not paying the 'tampon tax' could contribute to the protection of women and transwomen ?

And while I understand the sentiment behind toilets not being a hill that anyone wants to die on, I also wouldn't want them to become the space where our teenaged girls are obliged to feel trapped with men determined to exploit their rights (because that's what will be enshrined in law) to impose on girls and women by uttering a sacrosanct, unarguable 4-word sentence. I don't see why our pubescent girls should have to face the embarrassment of changing sanitary towels and tampons and bloodstained knickers with their male schoolmates in the same room, simply because the male schoolmates choose to announce that they are girls and nobody is allowed to question it. I don't see why the genito-urinary health of girls and women should be compromised because they are frightened to use toilets which are also used by men or boys who declare themselves female.