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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

OP posts:
slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 18:15

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MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 18:18

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slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 18:18

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whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 18:21

No feminists are not organised and I am aware of that. But those that have a media voice have been absent or have gone out of there way to say this is normal. Which imo it is not.

And some pp have intimated they think the reporting racist and thus shouldn't be engaged with in the same way as we might for any other news story about sexual assault.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 18:23

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almondpudding · 13/01/2016 18:41

I will repeat myself then Slugs.

I travel at night through a city square and through a train station in a large multicultural city. I have done for years.

Sometimes I see women sexually harassed. Sometimes it happens to me. Sometimes I see people racially harassed.

I have never seen anyone sexually assaulted. It has happened where I live. It has been in the news. What I have never seen happen, and has never been in the news, is that one woman or girl (never mind hundreds) has been surrounded by dozens of men who sexually assaulted her in public while family members were and bystanders who wished to help were unable to do so due to the numbers involved in the assault, and even after escaping the assault the girl had to evade many more attempts before leaving the location.

That is an exceptional event. I currently feel that I am at pretty much no risk whatsoever of that happening to me.

I am pretty sure that DD, in a club or at a gig as a young teenager, is also at a low risk of such an event.

Having seen video clips of such attacks happening to women, I would avoid any situation where I thought such an event was likely to happen. I do not believe at all that such an event routinely happens in a night club, which is why women don't avoid night clubs. That doesn't excuse the common forms of sexual assault is night clubs.

I think they are more severe than being assaulted by one man in a club, unless that one man used other aggravating factors. I believe that in many countries, dozens of perpetrators would be treated as an aggravating factor and be seen as a more extreme offence.

I believe if such a thing did start happening frequently in the UK, it would be more extreme and would be an escalation of the violence against women.

It is certainly not the most extreme form of sexual violence against women. There is genocidal rape, rape as a weapon of war, rape as a form of state imposed torture of dissidents and rape as part of people trafficking and slavery.

Once violence against women gets beyond a certain point in public spaces, women will avoid them and more women will be removed from public life. For some women in the UK, they consider the current risk too great. For me, if these exceptional events often happened here, I would remove myself. Women make that decision about genocide. Some stay and take the risk. Some leave. That doesn't excuse genocide.

We should be asking why this is happening in Germany, why it is not happening here, and what can be done to prevent it. Because this is an escalation. And women on MN are recognising it as such, and not because we're all too old and stupid and victim blaming to know that our daughters are risk of assault in night clubs.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 18:41

Here I am, giving feminism a bad name by insisting we listen to all women, that women everywhere are free from molestation even when not participating in overtly moral activities like seeking an education or leaving a station. It is not minimising the situation in Cologne to liken it to the experiences of women in our own cities. It is proper to ask questions of a media which has been indifferent to the point of hostility about VAW suddenly deciding that they must defend the freedom of women to walk the city when for the rest of the fucking year they are happy to say shit like, don't go clubbing if you don't like how you are treated there.

And for the record why does insisting we address masculine culture as the problem equate with 'defending the perpetrators'? I do not defend the perpetrators, I do not minimise what they did, it was appalling. I just don't think this behaviour is limited to, caused by, or explained by the ethnicity or religious background of the perps, or the fact they weren't born in Europe.

Now can I get some appalled horror for the pornification of this culture, or the casual normalisation of sexual assault in youth culture, Daily Mail et al?Because I'm fairly certain that if we tackled that women and girls would be safer than they would even if we sent all the immigrants for 'in Europe we don't think it's right to rape women' lessons.

sillage · 13/01/2016 18:47

There seems to be no videos from Cologne. Maybe those are forthcoming.

However, there are videos from the Puerto Rican Day Parade mass sexual assaults that happened in New York City June 2000. You can find those videos online and see mobs of American men assaulting dozens of American women and girls in broad daylight in the middle of New York City.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 18:59

'in overtly moral activities like seeking an education or leaving a station.'

Nothing to do with morality. It is to do with the most basic participation of women in public life, which most people would consider to be the right to education and the right to work.

It constitutes a double removal of women's rights. Wherever you are when you are sexually assaulted, your right to live free from sexual violence has been violated.

But if you are unable to access work or education due to the threat of sexual violence, two more of your most fundamental rights have also been removed.

Thus while all sexual assaults violate a woman's rights, additional violations are in play if she cannot access work to support herself and her family or education.

'don't go clubbing if you don't like how you are treated there.'

People haven't said that on here. I am asking why they do if events like Cologne happen in clubs. The answer is of course that such events don't really happen all the time in the UK in any setting.

I have been asked on MN why I walk alone at night. My answer is simple. The threat to my freedom by not doing so is greater than the risk of assault. If the risk of assault was great in some venue was greater, I wouldn't go.

You seem to be going to extraordinary lengths to avoid a very simple point made by multiple posters.

Risk, in terms of the likelihood of the event, the severity of the event, and the event being carried out in conjunction with other violations varies. We want to reduce risk and avoid increasing it, which doesn't mean we are trivialising the violations that are taking place.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 19:02

There have been videos of Cologne, also from prior events in Egypt.

The Cologne ones are no longer available from youtube, and I wouldn't want to search dodgy websites for them.

TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 13/01/2016 19:02

Outsself, how can you say 'I just don't think this behaviour is limited to, caused by, or explained by the ethnicity or religious background of the perps, or the fact they weren't born in Europe.' when the attacks have a name - taharrush gamea - which comes from the ME?

And implying that no one here has any interest on wider issues that are a concern is uncalled for. All issues that

sillage · 13/01/2016 19:20

After a jogger was gang raped in Central Park, gang raping packs of men were dubbed with "wilding".

When fraternity men gather to gang rape a woman it's called "pulling a train".

Those are off the top of my head.

If you really want me to go into the varied GENRES of pornography, I'll do so with the reminder that "German porn" functions as the English language popular media 'funny' shorthand for the most violent, BDSM-filled, most extreme type of porn.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 19:32

When the jogger was gang raped in Central Park, and this must at least 20 years ago because I wasn't a grown up yet, it was a BIG DEAL it was discussed endlessly. There was great concern. I can't remember anyone popping up saying that the real issue was generalised make violence and the specific issue was not worthy of consideration and debate.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 19:33

Make = male

TheWomanInTheWall · 13/01/2016 19:35

"IMO, this is what gives feminism a bad name. "

Great, thanks, that's helpful.Hmm

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 19:46

Rape by fraternities is also a major feminist concern, frequently discussed and written about in articles, features as a major plot point in tv shows etc.

sillage · 13/01/2016 19:50

Just like Cologne, the Central Park Jogger case focused much more on race than it did on male violence.

Now I'm going to share something very disturbing, proceed with caution.

www.alternet.org/story/12864/debate_grows_over_use_of_sexual_assault_photo

"A staff photographer for the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Urban was in downtown Seattle's Pioneer Square covering the 2001 Mardi Gras celebration, which had erupted into rioting that would leave one man dead.

From his perch on a fire escape, he saw a group of young men start up the typical Mardi Gras chant demanding that a woman bare her breasts. She refused and they attacked. In an incident that, according to the newspaper, echoed several others that night, her clothes were ripped off and she was groped by dozens of hands before escaping. Urban caught it all on film."

After looking at the VERY DISTURBING photo linked here, will you keep repeating the lie that men ganging up to sexual assault women in public is limited to one race, nation, or color of man and some entirely new thing?

None of these men was ever arrested.

www.flickr.com/photos/jpallan/353067341

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 19:53

sillage you have just illustrated that it can happen in any society. You have also shown how rare it is in our society at present. You had to cross the Atlantic Ocean, then Cross the North American Continent and go back in time 15 years to find an example.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 20:02

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PalmerViolet · 13/01/2016 20:11

Melinda, I think you're onto a loser here.

According to some, the women of FWR aren't posting enough, to others, we're not posting in a way they find acceptable. My reading of this and the other thread is that there is a massive lack of will to frame the situation as anything other than 'bad brown men like hurting white women' because looking at it in a nuanced way is anathema.

I fear that, unless we agree to take up pitchforks and light torches, the snarky replies and condescension will keep coming.

Just seems odd that we're slagged off if we discuss things about men as a class, but brown skinned men as a class or Muslim men as a class? Have at it. And if you don't, you're minimising what happened.

Ridiculous.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 20:13

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OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 20:18

Great post Melinda

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 20:24

It is considered worse because it involves dozens of perpetrators simultaneously sexually assaulting a woman or girl. The number of perpetrators is considered an aggravating factor in UK law in rape and sexual assault, and this is also the case in the law of other countries.

It is also considered worse because it happened multiple times in the same location at the same time, which would be considered a breakdown of social order.

It is also considered worse because of the difficulty the victims faced in exiting the situation despite the public venue.

Number of perpetrators, number of victims, and victims struggling to exit situations of social disorder are all widely considered to be indicators of a worsening situation than we expect in civil society.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 20:30

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2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 20:31

Exactly almond.