Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

OP posts:
TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 13/01/2016 17:39

Who has said women in clubs are fair game for sexual assault?

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 17:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 17:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 17:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 17:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 17:47

melinda worrying that once furore over cologne is over that the authorities and media will go back to ignoring women's issues is legitimate and likely to be true.

But it is not legitimate to refuse to participate or acknowledge that what happened is new to Europe. Feminists refusing to engage means we are not part of the solution. Imagine if this was the catalyst to re set the conversation on groping and cat calling in general.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 17:49

melinda the perpetrator can rely on all the men in the crowd or nearby to assist in the assault by kettling the victim.

... that is what I meant

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 17:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 17:50

PP have expressed that women can (should) choose not to go to clubs where they aren't respected. Which implies if they make the wrong choice, they've only themselves to blame/ they are fair game if they go into clubs. And if it does happen in clubs, it's not rape rape, because it's normal there and you expect it, and also because you are not being stopped from getting your education. Basically, if you were going to get your education and were digitally raped, and looked suitably traumatised, then it would be bad. In the club? Don't fucking go, fool.

Grimarse · 13/01/2016 17:52

Slug, scale does make a difference in any walk of life. Since I am not likely to be subject to sexual assault (being male), a close analogy would be the difference between being pushed in the chest or being beaten up and hospitalised. And just to be clear, I am talking about the difference between an anonymous bum-pinch and full-on rape. Neither are acceptable, but there is a clear difference in effect on the victim.

I do get the gist of Out's argument. We tolerate everyday sexism in the UK, in the sense that it is out there. However, even that is changing. Women in the UK have a voice, an outlet (e.g. everydaysexism.com), and can raise these matters as something that should be stopped. That level of protest is not tolerated in the societies that some of these men come from.

I think Outs sees this separation as the White Devil trying to differentiate himself as morally superior to his brown brother, when in fact we are all cut from the same cloth.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 17:52

I am referring to feminist journalists rather than fwr. The deafening silence from the guardian has been embarrassing.

But on here there has been big conversation on the news boards.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 17:52

I suspect most feminists support international law which clearly makes distinctions between different levels of severity of rape and sexual assault.

I don't understand why women would go places for fun knowing events like Cologne happened there. You calling that victim blaming doesn't explain why they do it.

What level of severity do we get to before you would see a difference? Genocidal rape? Abduction? Would you be there going, oh that's normal in nightclubs.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 17:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 17:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 17:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 17:57

There is only the right wing press because the left is saying nothing or minimising. Exactly my point.

We all have day jobs but why are the left wing journalists refusing to be part of the conversation.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 17:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 17:59

I think, Almond you misread the tone of my 'it's normal in nightclubs'. I'm saying. Yes, Cologne is appalling and if you think so then we should also be appalled by the casual sexual assault culture that takes place in nightclubs. I think that unwanted digital penetration is an awful crime, whereever it happens. But I don't think it is being reported in good faith.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 18:01

SO WHY IS THE LEFT WING NOT SPEAKING UP!

I understand melinda and grimble but there was a real live mass sexual assault. No not every rape is reported in the news but a lot are. And we sit up and fight the good fight for ched evans etc. But the left just vacates itself because this has been taken up by the right wing. FFS.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 18:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 18:04

This is more of a rant at left wing media than anyone here.

Because it seems if they can't win a moral point beyond boring old women's rights the guardian et al don't care. The daily mail is being true to itself but the rest are just what??

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 18:05

I'm horrified by lots of things.

But sexual assault of one woman by dozens of men simultaneously is not normal. The likelihood of such an event happening to me on a walk home or my daughter in a club are tiny.

I don't really care about why you keep trying to talk about other forms of sexual assault.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 18:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 18:12

I did not say that.

I totally agree that we are much more likely to be raped by someone we know. That is indeed a common event.

Unlike what is happening in Cologne, which is exceptional by UK standards.

itllallbefine · 13/01/2016 18:15

So the authorities should not treat this as a new thing and organise for it accordingly ?

All this crap about "digital penetration" and the images you are evoking of a fairly typical night out experience for a young woman in the UK the are utterly reprehensible IMO, this is what gives feminism a bad name. Yet as has been pointed out, women continue to be drawn to nightclubs (by what?) despite knowing that there are dozens of unrestricted pervs just waiting to shove a finger in them without retribution, perhaps if they knew more about this they wouldn't go ? But even still we cannot suggest that incase we victim blame the thousands who are getting the finger every night in "clubland".