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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

OP posts:
almondpudding · 13/01/2016 16:16

It happens all the time but you can't give a remotely similar example?

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 16:21

Outself can I ask directly then? Is your position that since you personally feel this type of sexual assault already exists and thus cologne and the current fallout is standard racism?

So do we all just go back to business as usual campaigning for non gendered toys, more women in stem and better funding for refuges? I listened to woman's hour and various news reports and wep lady on c4 news and I felt like my concerns were being hushed up by the very movement supposed to represent them.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 16:22

So I think it routinely happens in club culture, Almond. THough I can't give you an example that has been reported and framed in the same way this does not mean that it doesn't happen in the same way. Digital penetration, cassual sexual assault happens on a massive scale, but it does not create the same media event. My example is a huge one, club culture, as reported by young women and girls in this country. I believe them.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 16:36

coffee I do not think the media are reporting this event because of their concern about sexual violence against women. I do think they are reporting it because they have an anti-migrant agenda.

I do not think we shut up about Cologne. I think we should stand shoulder to shoulder with the women of Cologne and point to the ways that this particular incident is the logical conclusion of the constant objectification of women in European culture.Sexual contact is for sale in Germany. Is is any surprise that men in those cultures think consent is a technicality?

What I think we do about Cologne is point to the peoiple who have roundly failed to account for the sexual assault culture that young people have grown up in and ask them why the silence about sexual violence but not this? Why the dismissal of women in clubs, but the basic belief that only good women doing virtuous things like getting an education should be unmolested but women in clubs have no such rights? If Colgne is wrong, then that culture is toxic and needs to be challenged.

Sexual assault happens here all the time. Women run the gauntlet of unwanted sexaul contact the whole fucking time in this country but when we complain about UK men doing it we are derided, dismissed and disbelieved. So excuase me if I don't believe the media have suddenly found their feminist pants when the perps are 'north African'.

TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 13/01/2016 16:36

My experience of club culture certainly isn't current but I've experienced the groping etc. even 'back in my day'. For me the distinction, if there is one, was that the groping/assaults I experienced didn't involve being surrounded by large groups of men all grabbing/groping/assaulting me at the same time, but of individual opportunists using the cover of a large group to carry out such behaviour. For me it never got past the outer clothing though, so never anything as bad as what's described in Cologne or Sweden etc.

I think that's why the mass attacks are shift, for me anyway - the MO involved takes planned organisation, collusion between very large numbers of men, co-ordination on a scale that surpasses what I have personally experienced. That's what is utterly terrifying about these types of attacks. The scale of how many men are involved to render the target (and anyone who is with them) utterly helpless. How can any one person ever escape that sort of targeted assault?

PoorFannyRobin · 13/01/2016 16:48

An adherence to intersectionality certainly seems insane at this point, but so many women seem willing to martyr themselves as well as the rest of us, unfortunately to that concept. It's very important to remember that intersectionality is a Marxist critical theory concept first and foremost. It is NOT a concept that particularly protects women.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 16:49

Thanks outsself

I think I have clarified in my own mind why I have a problem with this position you and others have taken. I believe there is a contiuum of sexism and racism etc.

However I think I have never experienced in my life a situation is which abuse is facilitated by the many in a pre planned manner. I have been groped in clubs and tubes and I have known I could seek help... bouncers would and could throw them out. London underground is currently running a campaign to encourage women to report groping etc.

What I am getting at is I have never been afraid that a group or single attacker could assault me with the assistance of other members of the public? I always assume that people around me are neutral if not a bit cowardly and I risk assess accordingly. I don't think this post cologne and that is new for me.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 16:53

On intersectionality I always worked on the basis it was supposed to include more women in feminism. Considering the concerns of black women (lesbians, working class etc), doesn't mean coddling black male abusers. Where has that even come from?

itllallbefine · 13/01/2016 17:01

outs

I'm sorry but you sound paranoid. The media do not have an "anti immigrant" agenda, unless you seriously believe that the guardian et al. are now on the same side as the DM. The refugee crisis and influx of people of middle eastern/north african appearance has been THE major news story for the last 6 months. In order for your world view to be accurate, then women in cologne either do not bother to report sexual assault and rape by groups of white german men, or they do and the police just ignore it on a MASSIVE scale.

I cannot take seriously your contention that sexual assault on this scale is common place and that the media coverage of this otherwise unremarkable event, is based on racism. I'm a relatively young women and have been to many nightclubs, i know nightclub owners. This characterisation of a woman's typical clubbing experience as being one in which sexual assault is practically inevitable is politically driven misrepresentation.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 17:03

I don't think my position is the intersectional one because I am not particularly advocating for any particularly marginalised group of women. My understanding of intersectional feminism is that I would not really be a very good intersectional feminist because I mainly want to talk about women as a class.

To clarify: I think what happened in Cologne was truly awful. I welcome the outcry. I just want us to be equally outraged by the situation across the board, outraged by UK sexism and the constant state of violence against women and children. I think the Cologne media event is highly suspect. I think the horror we feel about Cologne is the horror we should feel about young women growing up in pornified culture. I am horrified by it all. I think it's equally an infringement on my rights to be digitally penetrated in a club, or when crowd surfing, as it is going to and from the station.

I am not worried at alll about being called a racist. I just think the real common denominator of the perps of crimes like this is that they are male.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 17:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 17:08

What I am getting at is I have never been afraid that a group or single attacker could assault me with the assistance of other members of the public? I always assume that people around me are neutral if not a bit cowardly and I risk assess accordingly. I don't think this post cologne and that is new for me.

Right on target coffee. Instead of most people being good, suddenly the whole crowd of seemingly unrelated strangers become monsters attacking you in mass. Horrific.

TheXxed · 13/01/2016 17:14

An adherence to intersectionality certainly seems insane at this point, but so many women seem willing to martyr themselves as well as the rest of us, unfortunately to that concept. It's very important to remember that intersectionality is a Marxist critical theory concept first and foremost. It is NOT a concept that particularly protects women.

Nothing about this post made any sense, what is your understanding of intersectional feminism? Who is martyring themselves? Who are women? Are you including black, gay and disabled women?

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 17:15

So is there or is there not a club culture where huge numbers of men simultaneously apprehend and assault an individual woman, and this happens multiple times a night to many women in the same venue?

And if so, I will ask, why do women go? Given that clubs are a voluntary form of entertainment?

Because I have seen the YouTube footage of these events happening in public places and all the women present look utterly traumatised, even if it is not them it is currently happening to.

And I would stay at home and keep my daughter in the home if such events were 'normal.' If such events routinely happened on the streets of the UK I would consider that society as we know it as women had collapsed.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 17:19

it'llall The characterisation I offer of UK clubbing experience for young women is a report given to me by young women. I don't think they had a political agenda when they were making that report. I have offered it here because I think there is a blindness to the sexism of our own culture but we are happy to point to it when it comes from elsewhere. The women who described their experiences in this way did not report anything, they thought it was normal. Understandable when the basic attitude even in a feminist discussion is that you are fair game if you are clubbing.

grimbletart · 13/01/2016 17:22

I think Outself is horribly missing the point. It is not that we don't agree that groping happens all the time by all sorts of men from all sorts of backgrounds.

What does not happen all the time is that hundreds of women are groped by mass groups of men in a public square with utter impunity. And it is coming to light that it was not just Cologne, but other German cities and Sweden as well.

It is a huge difference of scale. Yes, society should address the ongoing problem that women are seen as fair game. That should not stop it addressing quickly and without any nonsense about first understanding the poor dears what is now happening en masse.

The need to understand can come quietly and rationally once the perpetrators have been dealt with i.e charged, found guilty and deported back to wherever they came from, whatever the dangers are there.

itllallbefine · 13/01/2016 17:25

oh, i'm sorry, I must have missed the bit where it was said that women in nightclubs were fair game for sexual assault ?

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 17:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 17:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 17:31

Look even if club land is rife with sexual assault it is still different because it is not facilitated by every single male in the room working as a hive to attack the women. The men in the club did not go expressly, having pre planned a night of sexual assault safe in the knowledge that bouncers would not intervene and all other men would support their activities.

To me it's difference between one person trying to kill you in village and the entire village hunting you down. Murder is still wrong and you would still be dead. But in scenario 1 you can seek help and risk assess. Scenario 2 is of a different order.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 17:33

I would consider it worse to be surrounded by a huge number of men and sexually assaulted by huge numbers of men, while members of my own family who wanted to help me were unable to do so because of the number of men trapping me and sexually violating me.

I would consider that worse than being assaulted by one man alone where bystanders who wanted to help me had a possibility of doing so.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 17:34

Almond, can you see that you are doing all the things feminist challenge in relation to reports that young women in this culture are subject to unwanted digital penetration. You suggest that they shouldn't go where they go. You suggest that they have choices about leaving or obvious and clear recourses to action. You suggest that if it 'really' happened, the police would do something. You suggest that because the women expected it, it's less of a crime than that against the women in Cologne, who didn't expect it. You suggest that the women are not sufficiently traumatised to constitute real victims of sexual assault because they don't look or act like the traumatised women in Cologne. You demand evidence of a particular kind and can't accept that a lack of that evidence does not mean that what those young women described to me and many others does not happen. Your dismissal of it is really disheartening.

I think the situation in Cologne is awful. But lets not pretend that it is a new and unique kind of misogyny. And let's use the horror that people rightly feel about it to point to the endemic sexism of our own culture.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 17:35

I think the silly debate on this thread perfectly answers your original question Manatee.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 17:36

I think the situation in Cologne is awful. But lets not pretend that it is a new and unique kind of misogyny.

Actually, it really is a new thing in Europe and many posters have explained why clearly and concisely.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 17:37

I think a sexual assault is a sexual assault.

But my argument is that you do not anticipate the perpetrator to be supported by the wider public in this way. That is terrifying and new.