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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

OP posts:
2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 14:39

Thank you Kesstrel. Smile

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 14:41

If the situation in Cologne and other cities recently is not unique, are there examples of where the same things have happened elsewhere and how authorities have dealt with them effectively or otherwise?

Because I don't see how sharing advice or cultural practices around wearing extra pairs of knickers is useful in relation to these situations.

I also think it is important and not victim blaming to distinguish between sexual assaults where the victim has a means of escape (a club) and spaces where victims means of escape is blocked (gangs of men blocking women and girls to conduct sexual assaults in public transport hubs and public spaces women and girls need to walk through).

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 14:42

Agree almondpudding.

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 14:49

OK, so being groped on the train is equivalent to being surrounded by 30 plus men and being multiply penetrated 6 or 7 of them, having your underwear torn off, and watching it happen to your 14 year old daughter as well?

Look, I'm not saying groping on the train or in a club isn't awful and disgusting. But are we really saying that we should be campaigning against that whilst saying whilst saying nothing about takarrrash gaemin being imported to Europe?

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 14:50

if you have suggested that it is either a lie or their behaviour is what caused it.

Nobody has suggested any such thing. Please don't continue with your twisting and distortions of other people's views.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 14:51

I did not share the cultural practice of knicker wearing as a solution but as a way of pointing to the way that similar incidents in our culture are dismissed and minimised. Those examples were then dismissed and minimised. I'm sorry but there is not a spectrum of 'hand rape' which goes from mildly irritating/ 'rowdy drunks going too far' to 'completely unacceptable because they were at the station'. These crimes are of the same order of magnitude to the women that they happen to. They happen in massive numbers. It's not that I am dismissing what happened in Cologne, not at all: I'm just asking why it is that the same thing happening to young women in clubs in our culture is not at all comparable? Because it looks like the same old shit to me.

GreenTomatoJam · 13/01/2016 14:56

Of course it's bloody not the equivalent - don't be ridiculous - I'm just saying that people normalise all sorts of appalling stuff, that being groped is also unacceptable, yet almost no-one ever reports it, so it's no great surprise to me, as outself says, that it going as far as penetration is normalised.

Hell, I've read articles with high-school girls in the US who just assume that at parties they'll be giving blow jobs to multiple men with no control over who those men are. People normalise all sorts of shit situations.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 14:58

Try to separate urban myth from facts. I don't believe this is normal or happening regularly.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 15:00

Then why did you mention wearing two pairs of knickers at all? It has absolutely no relevance to the discussion and you could have pointed out that women get assaulted in clubs without bringing up victim blaming solutions.

I travel home at night, most nights, through a city square and by train. My daughter frequently travels home from school activities at night by public transport.

If it is 'normal' for gangs of men to surround and sexually assault women in city squares and train stations, this will pretty much destroy mine and my daughter's right to education and employment.

It is not comparable to clubbing.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 15:10

I brought up the example to make it clear that the sexual assaults that happened in Cologne are like sexual assaults that happen here and are accepted and normalised by the same people who think that the behaviour of those men in Cologne is unacceptable. I actually think it is entirely comparable because a digital rape is fucking abhorent in whatever situation it's happening? I mean, haven't we taken to task Richard Dawkins on precisely this kind of 'rape in this situations is worse than rape in those situations' type qualification? It's all unacceptable to me.

But when I raise the one example I am dismissed, it's diminished, it's ridiculous to think that choosing to go to a club should entail the same freedoms as going about our daily business. Moreover, there is a police response in Cologne, it has roundly been condemned, there are all sorts of discussions about how we're going to reeducate these immigrants. The men in the clubs, though, our men, don 't have to change their behaviour at all. And if any of them reading this did pause for a second and think he should, he is given multiple get out of jail free cards by posters saying stuff like, well, don't go to the club or they are lying. I couldn't make this up if I was the fucking number one script writer for patriarchy international

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 15:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 15:18

The sexual assaults you have mentioned are not like the sexual assaults in Cologne, and you're the one victim blaming,

Wear two pairs of knickers.

FFS.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 15:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 15:26

Interesting choice of options for your thought experiment there Hmm. Sorry, not playing.

To get back to the original issue: I disagree with self-censorship, especially by the media, over any aspect of violations of womens' rights. And I would add that if it appears to people that this is being done for "PC" reasons it is likely to be counter-productive and provoke a backlash. We've certainly seen that with Rotherham etc.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 15:27

I'm not suggesting wear two pairs of knickers, please reread as you have got the wrong end of the stick. It is victim blaming to suggest that women in clubs have forfited their right to remain unmolested.

"Sexual assaults which are digital penetration in a public space from which your means of escape is limited" can apply both to the club situation and to Cologne. In this sense they are alike. Especially to the women involved

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 15:29

I am not suggesting censor the media on Cologne. I am just asking why it is you think they are not doing so, in the case that they self censor on the everyday sexual assaults that happen to WAG in this country?

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 15:32

BTW on lying or dismissing:

"I don't believe this is happening" it was reported by a group of unknown-to-each-other young women in front of a large crowd at FiL 2014. So if you don't believe them, then you are accusing them of lying or extreme distortion.

and

'don't go to the club' as a way to not experience sexual assault is victim blaming. I'm not distorting or lying or twisting what anyone has said, they said that stuff.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 15:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 15:44

and I realise that they will make people uncomfortable

Oh dear, that actually made me laugh out loud. Talk about smug! Over a transparent attempt to frame and narrow the debate in a way that suits your own agenda! Sorry, I've seen this exact tactic before, including the use of the word "uncomfortable", and the people who use it are always certain that anyone who doesn't agree with them in all particulars is a bigot in need of condescending enlightenment. As I said before, sorry, not playing.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 15:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 16:00

It is you I don't believe Outself. I think you are full of nonsense.

TheXxed · 13/01/2016 16:02

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5198716

Iggy Azalea had to stop crowd surfing because people kept trying to finger her.

I dodo had it spot on upthread.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 16:08

Well, having no means of exit could happen to a woman in a club, but you never mentioned it in your example.

So are there any actual examples of where hundreds of women and girls were assaulted by groups of civilian men blocking their means of escape (and detaining somebody by force is surely an additional offence), and what was the response to that by the government, police and media?

I would also say that women are not responding in the same way. Because you claimed that women in the club found this to be normalised among women, while women and girls in Cologne were not expecting this and did not consider it normal. The police and various commentators online are considering both within a normal range of violence against women, but I have not read the victims in Cologne claiming that.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 16:09

This is why I struggle with feminism.

Women are literally being chased off the streets of major European cities and we are discussing the appropriate words to define the perpetrators?!

By all means let's talk about domestic violence and marginalisation and sexism. But to quote an older thread this conversation seems to assume all the women are white and all the men are black.

The men in the square on Nye I imagine are even worse behind closed doors with "their own women" who unlike European resident women will struggle to get their voices and stories out there.

There are limited resources out there and for all the thought experiments posited, back in the real world we can allocate resources to the worst abuses or we can sprinkle a little over every instance of sexism.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 16:13

2016 Can I ask you how you would feel if you did believe in that report? So for me it is easy to believe because the way I witnessed hearing about it was incredibly convincing and because in subsequent discussions with young women it has been reaffirmed. I accept that for you hearing it from me you can't believe it, fine.

But can you understand why for me, with that in my world view, this discussion and horror about Cologne seems highly suspect? Being that in my world, this sort of thing happens all the time but it is dismissed and disbelieved by even people in a feminist discussion.