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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

OP posts:
whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 21:41

I don't think we are opposing sides but the original op was broader than just us. It covered pc speech codes, which are exemplified by some feminists and the left leaning media.

almondpudding · 13/01/2016 21:47

Grimble, I would suggest it is because people are used to hearing certain arguments and make assumptions that it is going to lead to some form of dubious rhetoric that they have heard a hundred times before, so jump in and pick a side, because listening to arguments in good faith can be exhausting.

And it can be time consuming to sit around for hours trying to really understand the perspectives of multiple other people, and we can often end up not hearing individual perspectives because all the people who we each view as being on the 'other' side start to blend together.

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 21:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 21:50

Also reading it. Pp evolved their positions as the thread progressed. This debate was interesting to me because I have been really fascinated by the position of the guardian all of this. They have been crap and I interested to see how others have viewed it.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 21:52

Worrying about the daily mail is like howling at the moon.

Justanotherlurker · 13/01/2016 21:53

Why am I arguing this? Because I think that homing in on the ethnicity / religion of these perpetrators as the ONLY thing that motivated them, the PRIMARY thing even, is an analytical mistake that will lead to policy change that harms people who shouldn't be harmed and doesn't really help people who ought to be helped.

The far right have been doing this for ages, unfortunately it doesn't mean that looking at this recent 'phenomen' as described by Swedish police means we cannot ask difficult questions while still discussing the wider problem.

Reading some of the replies here I think the OP is correct in their assertion, some strains of feminism and media have painted themselves in such a corner that in the past any dissenting voices was automatically dismissed as 'racist/problematic/right wing' that the fear of being ostracised or admitting that you may have thoughts that contradict some metaphorical line in the sand that you have stood behind for years, or even worse being on the same side as the right wing media is more of an issue than having a candid and open discussion about what has happened.

Not having this candid discussion has enabled the far right to gain the narrative, that is not a valid reason to try and downplay or whataboutry around the dataset that has presented itself and the wider implications around that.

itllallbefine · 13/01/2016 22:17

@TheWomanInTheWall

Equating a mass, organised sexual assault, specifically perpetrated by a recently arrived population of young men from a very different and deeply misogynistic culture, with what you can expect on a trip to your average uk nightclub, is fecking ridiculous. Moreover, doing so, so that you can frame it in a way that reminds everyone that so far as feminism is concerned, the problem is basically "men" is what I think is unhelpful.

I think the OPs question is a good one, and she's right, we should not worry about being PC here - nor should we worry about being more specific than "Men as a class". I don't care that you do not find that "helpful", i do not come on here and say that your posts are "unhelpful" just because i don't agree with them. Get your head out your arse.

TheWomanInTheWall · 13/01/2016 22:24

Charming.

venusinscorpio · 13/01/2016 22:26

Reading some of the replies here I think the OP is correct in their assertion, some strains of feminism and media have painted themselves in such a corner that in the past any dissenting voices was automatically dismissed as 'racist/problematic/right wing' that the fear of being ostracised or admitting that you may have thoughts that contradict some metaphorical line in the sand that you have stood behind for years, or even worse being on the same side as the right wing media is more of an issue than having a candid and open discussion about what has happened.

YY.

whodrankmycoffee · 13/01/2016 22:33

Agree with lurker

The left wing should not be synonymous with feminism. And it clearly is not.

venusinscorpio · 13/01/2016 22:35

The most obvious ways of reducing the risk of this happening again is to a. acknowledge it is a specific form of abuse that happens in certain situations, b. have the police prepare methods of preventing it in their crowd policing tactics and c. have event organisers and town planners take into account the dangers to women in the way events and environments are designed.

Yes. I would like to see a clear practical commitment to this, rather than the brushing under the carpet and minimising which first happened, for obvious reasons. Obviously the authorities will take any opportunity not to exert themselves in the defence/protection of women, as we don't appear to matter much in the grand scheme of things. That is becoming abundantly clear, and it is also part of what happens with the trans issue and what happened in Rotherham and other places.

We need to start calling this out more, and these specific incidents should give us an opportunity to do this and an impetus for them to be pressured to do something like almond sensibly suggests, at the very least.

moonstruckl8 · 14/01/2016 14:07

Saw this today: Charlie hebdo' latest cartoon insinuating the little 3 year old Syrian refugee boy who died would have grown up to become a sexual attacker anyway had he made it to Germany.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/13/a-new-charlie-hebdo-cartoon-portrays-dead-3-year-old-refugee-aylan-kurdi-as-a-sexual-attacker-in-germany/

But of course that's not racism that's very subtle liberal satire. Of the same kind of liberal satire The comedian Amy poelher used to joke about Beyoncé's 3 year old daughter Blue ivy being soon old enough to be urinated on by R Kelly.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2015/08/19/amy-poehlers-difficult-people-slammed-for-blue-ivy-r-kelly-joke-heres-why-its-extremely-meta/

Funny how these jokes are easy to make about non white children- though the latter is not made to hype Europe's civilian population up for war as the first is. Because for sure Hebdo' cartoon goes way beyond just the right's desire of purging refugees from Europe, it's to further the neoliberal project by desensitising the public from any images of dead ME/ muslim girl and boy children in the coming wars for regime change in their home places. 'Ach, if they weren't to grow up to be terrorists they would have grown up to be sex attackers, so let's help ourselves to their oil and gas while the sun shines...continuously'.

Shallishanti · 14/01/2016 20:42

I think that's seeing a plot where there isn't one.
For sure it is deeply nasty and offensive cartoon which insults one particular person, and I wonder how much lower you can get than to trample on the memory of a dead toddler. And while I don't think it's racist to discuss what it means to have large numbers of young male migrants in a city it IS racist to say Syrian=future rapist.
Insult the church, prophets, politicians, fine. Slander children, not fine and not funny.

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