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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

OP posts:
bluebolt · 13/01/2016 12:58

"Had raped" should say "hand raped"

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 12:59

Outself As I understand it, you have just complained that the 2016 mass sexual assaults are nothing new. I think you are wrong. But, if you have facts to back that up, I am willing to listen.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 13:01

In Feminism in London 2014, a breakout session involved approx 8-10 young British women describing how they had to wear extra underwear in order to signal that they were not available for what you call 'hand rape' - the attempt to insert a finger in the vagina. These young women were amazed that the older women there including myself called it sexual assault because it is their normal/ club culture. I believe them.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 13:02

As a women I always feel secure around many men it is only when isolated I am more fearful.

I agree. Crowded public spaces had always been safe up until now. This is a sinister new turn. This how I have felt in London in crowds whether those crowds be White, Black, or Asian, and being, London it is usually a pretty even mix. I don't think this is a race thing. It is a culture thing.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 13:04

I think the numbers of women assaulted aren't new. Perhaps the style, the grouping. But not the open sexual assault, no, that's not new, not the blatant misogyny, no, that's not new, not the treating of women as objects through which you can achieve your masculinity, no that's not new. The scale is not new, no. That you would gather openly on the street to do it, perhaps that is new. That women were believed and that the assualts were recognised as assaults, that's new. But that 100's of women were subjected to sexual assault on a night out, nope, not new.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 13:05

I think it is keeping your eye on the problem to say, if there were a crowd of 'migrant' 'refugee' 'north african' women on the street, everyone would have been safe.

This point has been made routinely on some of the other threads.

BarryMerry · 13/01/2016 13:05

Post hoc, all offenders should be treated equally, no matter what their ethnic or cultural background, through the criminal justice system.

Ante hoc, no, we need to fully understand the cultural nuances that give rise to specific behaviour and offending patterns so we can tackle the problems with effective legislation and social policies. We can't do that if we don't have full information in the data sets... or selectively ignore salient information for political expediency reasons. White male professionals harrassing women in the vicinity of a strip club has different roots and dynamics from taharrush gamea & the events of Cologne bahnhof/Tahrir Sq/We Are Stockholm festival. Equally repulsive, with many overlapping features, but a different quality from each other.

MorrisZapp · 13/01/2016 13:08

I live in a city and have never witnessed sexual assault on the street. If I saw it en mass I'd be fucking horrified.

That's just minimising and double speak in my opinion. Of course women are subject to assault on our streets every day. But no, the scenes in Cologne do not look like any city centre I've seen or heard of.

And please can we stick to discussing assault, not harassment. Harassment is often verbal, I've experienced it many times in UK and abroad. But it is not assault. These crimes are in the assault category, please don't downplay them.

SurferJet · 13/01/2016 13:10

Op: I will never explain this as well as I'd like, but I've often felt that ( some ) feminists only agenda is to bring down white men. I'm assuming it's because 'the white man' holds all the power. I could be completely wrong but that is how it looks sometimes.

MorrisZapp · 13/01/2016 13:14

I agree surfer. If they're rich, all the better. Rich white men have been abusing their privilege since time began, and it's fine to highlight it, talk about it, and discuss what it is about the rich white subset that makes them act this way. But other subsets, nope, that's just masculinity. Nothing more.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 13:16

I couldn't give a shiny shit if many/ most of the perpetrators are BME. They all look like blokes to me. BME sexism is the same order of things as white sexism. It sickens me that white men are only willing to enter the discussion so long as it doesn't look like they have to change anything about their behaviour.

I have spent time listening to young women describing their experiences of clubland and they do describe experiencing 'hand rape' as routinely as I used to experience bum pinching and they don't report it because in this country it is 'rowdy drunks going too far'.

MorrisZapp · 13/01/2016 13:17

And it isn't race that's the issue or defining subset factor, it's religion.

MorrisZapp · 13/01/2016 13:21

I too am sickened by the likes of Katie Hopkins and a host of sexist male commentators suddenly finding their inner feminist when they can have a go at immigrants. It's hypocrisy of the most blatant kind.

But that's not the point. We can discuss things for the right reasons, even if others are discussing them for the wrong ones.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 13:29

I think every time we discuss it in terms of religion race etc we are overlooking the fact that men of all religions and races do this on a massive scale to women all the time. We contribute to the minimising of the overall problem, that men the world over feel entitled to the bodies and labour and reproductive capacity of women the world over. White men exploit women just as much but in different ways and with more power, more clout and less culpability. I would be pleased to discuss the racial aspect of this when, as I said upthread, it stops looking like a logical and rational realisation of the same old patriarchy doing the same old shit.

HelpfulChap · 13/01/2016 13:31

OutsSelf

I think I, as a white man, am being insulted there somehow.

I'm not really bright enough to work out what, by default, am being called.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 13:37

If your biggest concern in discussions like this is being insulted then you are doing great, aren't you? The rest of us have to contend with the reality of being under threat of sexual assault and racist abuse. Please let's not have to go through the many reasons why it might be appropriate to not privilege your feelings here.

Grimarse · 13/01/2016 14:01

HelpfulChap, I too am a white western male. I have so far kept out of what is an excellent, thoughtful discussion. Whatever insult you think has been sent your way, let it go. You are seen by some feminists (NAFALT) as the root of the problem by dint of your chromosomes, not by your individual actions. That is just how it is.

HelpfulChap · 13/01/2016 14:07

It is indeed an excellent discussion. And I apologise for derailing.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 14:12

Outself, if the club scene is like that, I wonder how the club can stay in business. Why does anyone go? I wouldn't.

The public square is a different matter. I can decide not to patronise a dance club, where I won't be respected. I have to walk down the street to live my life.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 14:24

I believe those young women who told me and many others about that (it was a public disucssion with many contributors and many witnesses). It was their normal to be sexually assualted. You have suggested that they are either lying 'why would anyone go there' or asking for it 'I can decide not to patronise a dance club, where I won't be respected'. So it's their fault for going, is it? Or is it that they were lying? Exactly why do you think 'hand rape' committed by north african men in a public square is an issue, but when committed by UK men it's probably not true and they were asking for it anyway?

This is exactly what I mean by the way that sexual assualt is dismissed and minimised inside our own culture. You're doing it right there. It's why I'm not surprised that it happened, it's why it looks exactly like the same old patriarchy doing the same old shit. I don't the Cologne situation is 'new' in either scale or quality. It says a lot about our culture and our press that Cologne we recognise but we are pleased to dismiss our own misogynists as 'rowdy drunks going too far'.

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 14:30

Exactly, 2016. Nor does groping at clubs involve 30 men surrounding a single woman in order to prevent her from accessing help/getting away.

These events took place not just in a public square, but in the exit to a railway station. There were women with their young daughters, who had no choice but to run the gauntlet of that exit. Conflating that with choosing to attend a club is ridiculous.

Presumably it was wrong to draw attention to the way Catholic culture enabled peodophile priests; instead the discussion/campaign should have been about how sexual abuse of children takes place everywhere. After all Catholics have been seriously discriminated against in the past, and still are in some places.

kesstrel · 13/01/2016 14:33

So it's their fault for going, is it? Or is it that they were lying? Exactly why do you think 'hand rape' committed by north african men in a public square is an issue, but when committed by UK men it's probably not true and they were asking for it anyway?

It's interesting how often people who wish to distort the views of others employ the complex question fallacy. It lets them avoid the appearance of blatantly misrepresenting/lying about what other people have said, while making it more difficult for people to respond.

Siolence · 13/01/2016 14:35

I'm reeling that digital rape is now common in clubs. Was bad enough being rubbed up against, having your arse felt 15 years ago.

No one suggested you didn't go to clubs, it went with the territory. I'm horrified that the mauling of women's bodies in crowded places has escalated to penetration.

GreenTomatoJam · 13/01/2016 14:37

Dunno kesstrel, I'm no catch looks-wise, but I've been groped (although on top of clothes than goodness) more than once on the tube, surrounded by people, unable to move or escape, or even see who it was that was doing it.

I thought that was a fairly common experience for those of us who commute through London at rush hour? I certainly didn't really consider it so unusual as to be worth getting home late to report it at the time.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 14:39

It's not fallacious to ask why you think women in this country either lie about being sexually assaulted in this way or asked for it if you have suggested that it is either a lie or their behaviour is what caused it.

Honestly shit like 'Conflating that with choosing to attend a club' is making my argument for me. Please, do continue