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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

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DadWasHere · 12/01/2016 22:15

But how does that explain the sexual assault epidemic in Egypt.

Collapse of rule of law. As control slips you increasingly see what people are.

Siolence · 12/01/2016 22:20

I don't think you can separate large scale immigration and the never seen before outbreaks of 'taharrush gamea'. Does this mean we turn into UKIP supporters? No. It does mean that there is a serious problem which needs to be addressed by education and proactive policing.

Siolence · 12/01/2016 22:24

Large groups of disenfranchised people behave in extreme ways. Riots, looting, violence.

The problem I have with the Cologne assaults is that the violence was carried out by men upon women.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 12/01/2016 22:37

Large numbers of unemployed young men are extremely dangerous to society - it's why historically such a large importance has been placed on providing first jobs for men, apprenticeships and national service when jobs were low. They are also very easily radicalised when they have no proper links to society and will hold on to any ideology that flatters their superiority complex.

By accepting in the men that travel (rather than families and children stuck in refugee camps) Germany has imported large numbers of young, angry men who are likely to be traumatised and of whom a large majority fulfil their ego through assumed superiority over women - whether fellow refugees who they considered property or native women who they consider whores.

Men who think like this are not going to be convinced by nice words, we need to prove that women's rights come first through action.

Siolence · 12/01/2016 22:43

Interesting points OneFlewOverTheDodosNest.

Priority given to young men over over groups because it is known that they will become a risk to society? I can't disagree but it is depressing to read that bad behaviour is rewarded by giving them priority enforcing their belief in their own superiority.

What actions do you think would be effective?

DadWasHere · 12/01/2016 22:48

That is quite a golden egg you laid there Dodo, it articulates in a few words the very heart of the problem.

HairyLittleCarrot · 12/01/2016 23:13

When I read threads like this I feel humbled by the cleverness and eloquence of the OP and other posters. I feel quite the prat posting this, but my take on the OP is "should we feel free to tell the truth about harms to women, in good faith as we see it, even if that truth poses problems for other groups?"
And of course the answer is yes.
When we leave a vacuum of discussion someone else fills it. I do not want the far right barmpots to have a monopoly on a truth, such that fair minded people distance themselves from it.
Even broken clocks are right twice a day. And I won't hide a truth because the haters appropriated it for their own causes. I want the truth known so that harm can be prevented. We can't address a problem if we can't name it.

TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 13/01/2016 02:58

Just marking my place here, will come back and read later.

BeakyMinder · 13/01/2016 03:57

This is a crisis for liberalism - but it shouldn't be a crisis for feminism. Unless we continue to insist that you have to be a liberal to be a true feminist, that is.

Personally I think feminism can't make much more progress until it can incorporate the perspectives of conservative women. Just look at the trans issue - only way we're going to get that addressed is by engaging with the small c conservative mainstream. No ones listening to Greer, Bindel etc.

I say this a lifelong bleeding hearter starting to get pretty sick of the liberal ghetto, wanting to hear different women's perspectives.

HelpfulChap · 13/01/2016 06:51

Quite heartening to see that others are having concerns with mass immigration without the continual fear of being called a racist.

Shame it took something like Cologne to remove the veil from their eyes.

TheXxed · 13/01/2016 07:03

That was brilliant post dodo I agree completely.

Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 07:56

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TrojanWhore · 13/01/2016 08:03

"Does this mean we turn into UKIP supporters? No"

No, because self-identifying with UKIP would horrify many people.

"It does mean that there is a serious problem which needs to be addressed by education and proactive policing."

UKIP have been on about this for years, it's key to their stance.

The problem with the rhetoric here is people trying to find other words so they can feel better about supporting something that is at the core of UKIP's stance.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 08:15

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PalmerViolet · 13/01/2016 08:16

Ego.. you've started a thread where you've been merrily attacking the women of FWR for not posting, so I'm not sure what you're getting out of doing it on this one? A sense of moral superiority perhaps? The desire to tell women what to think and how to feminist again?

Also not sure what possible relevance the trans issue has here? Unless you're suggesting that either the attackers or victims were trans?

If you honestly don't see how VAWG is rarely discussed here, then maybe you should try reading threads. It constitutes a greater number of posts than trans issues. How would you like women to discuss it? Can you give us a proforma of acceptable thread titles maybe? Ways you'd like us to formulate our discussions? Permitted phrases?

Every time we discuss VAWG though, the discussions are shut down by either a) trolls b) not my Nigelling c) NAMALTing. Unless we can add race or religion into the mix, then we can dissect and class analyse until the cows come home. Odd that, don't you think?

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 08:17

I support women first. Culture is not an excuse and not all cultures are the same.

Mass gang rape in the public square is far more horrifying to me than being called "darling" or being whistled at. Anyone arguing some sort of moral equivalence needs to get a grip.

Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 08:18

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Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 08:22

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PalmerViolet · 13/01/2016 08:24

Mass immigration has not been handled well. Not because of the race/religion of the men arriving, but because large groups of traumatised men with nothing to fill their days revert to gender extremes. We really do need more people working in Europe to sustain welfare systems, we certainly need them here, as evidenced by women getting shafted for pensions. We need them productive and safe though. Maybe what should happen is that newly arrived immigrants should be expected to undergo a few months of training, including language lessons, how to handle the new currency, exploring everyday life in their host country etc, and in this way they would have a purpose to their days? In this way, potential trouble could be spotted and averted? I'd also suggest that this might be a good idea for everyone who finds themselves without structure to their day, including the long term unemployed

I'd also agree with Melinda and slugs. Until we as a society are capable of treating women as equally human, then why on earth would we expect someone who's culture is even more restrictive to women to behave much better?

If they believe that 'white women are sluts' then they believe that because the only white women they will have had regular contact with are those used in advertising etc. Those women are commodified and hypersexualised. If men who have lived in Western society with those images surrounding them since birth can't stop sexually assaulting women, why would we expect men who general experience of women is so totally different? Yet again, women are reaping what men sow and yet again the loudest outrage is based in racism and ideas of women as property. God forbid that, as women, we're allowed to discuss what is actually happening here. As long as 'those' men are the only ones who have to modify their behaviour and 'these' women do too, then it means that men as a group don't... and that's how society likes things.

moonstruckl8 · 13/01/2016 08:25

Its sad it's taken white feminism this long to see the dangers of individualism and liberalism to their movement and a shame that small c conservstive feminists only get roused about that when it comes to immigration. That the only way to build greater consensus and cooperation between left and right wing feminists is through parochial altruism against 'the other'. that they feel they have so little power in other issues to do with trends in society towards greater individualism to have a say. I get it, really I do- women all women do the best they can under the patriarchal circumstances they find themselves in.

Most of You say let us break down the statistics on violence against women into further sub groupings than male against female and you wish to make it on religion/ culture (as you feel inhibited to say race). that it is because of intersectional feminism that you are not allowed to study sub groupings of violence against women.

I mentioned intersectionality in my first post with an example that does not involve any issues to do with religion or culture or race. It was mainly about class and violence against women. The highest rates of domestic violence in the UK is in the city with the highest rate of unemployment - Liverpool. someone who doesn't come from and love this city may just say avoid scousers, avoid poor men, they are the most terrible towards women as s black and white solution. dodo point up thread about high numbers of unemployed 'untethered' young men disturbing the community spelled it out far better than the link I made.. Some of you may hate to bring any nuance in this subject preferring to look at 'feminism' so I wanted to ask how you would treat this subject if it was simply breaking down the statistics on male on female violence by class - that those statistics are far more glaring and telling but then what you do with that information depends on what part of the political spectrum you sit.

Just today in the news increased rise in violent crime since 2009 in the UK is being driven by increased violence against women,

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/13/hidden-rise-violent-crime-growth-violence-against-women
The link between austerity measures, cuts to social services and domestic violence charities and violence against women is clear, but much harder to deal with on a societal level than just saying 'immigrant men'.

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 08:26

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Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 08:26

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PalmerViolet · 13/01/2016 08:26

ego... then you're blind. Or willfully stupid.

Stop merailing yet another thread. You have your 'FWR are shit' thread going, I assume merrily, why not stick to slagging women off on there?

TheXxed · 13/01/2016 08:28

Ego do you really think peoples cultural backgrounds have not been discussed widely enough in society. Genuine question.

My background has been of topic of discussion from politicians, policy makers, think tanks, journalist et al my entire life. People use coded language to discuss my cultural background words like 'attainment gap' or 'prison to school pipeline'. Cultural backgrounds have been the constant topic of my entire life. I would like to move to where you where apparently people aren't discussing it.

OTheHugeManatee · 13/01/2016 08:28

Well FWR is discussing it now. I'll take that, personally.

I started this thread because I had noticed a general sense among fans of liberal/equalities type ideas that this was a difficult issue to address. I wanted to explore why it feels like a bit of a bind. Like there was an unspoken feeling in places that our society has to choose between supporting women and supporting ethnic minority refugees. Pointing out that it is a bind, and hence that some feminists have been cautious about addressing it, doesn't really advance the discussion.

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