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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a conflict between PC speech codes and the need to name sources of misogynistic violence?

263 replies

OTheHugeManatee · 12/01/2016 10:21

I've been following debates around the 'trans' issue on FWR with interest for some time. More recently I've also been appalled by the mass sexual attacks in Cologne and the related issue of the stilted, minimising way those attacks have been discussed - particularly in the left-leaning press.

It's got me wondering about possible conflicts between PC speech codes and feminist analysis. I think this is a feature of both these issues. To be clear, by 'PC speech codes' I mean the cultural taboos that make it socially unacceptable to make generalisations about certain groups of people.

In trans debates, trans people are cast as a minority within a minority, and women are re-framed as the ones with privilege who must cede space to ease their suffering. Much of the feminist discussion around this is, as I understand it, devoted to challenging this narrative.

In the Cologne attacks, there was a visible reluctance by left of centre media to be explicit about the cultural/ethnic dimension to the attacks. The implicit view, from some quarters, seems to be that the right of white Western women to move about at night free from sexual assault weighs equally - or even lower - than the right of refugees to be protected from ugly stereotypes and/or racist reprisals, and that therefore the ethnic/cultural dimension of the attacks should be played down lest it exacerbate the suffering of refugees.

Elsewhere though in FWR I've seen robust defenses of the validity and need for generalisations, when it comes to class analysis of gendered violence. As I understand it, it is reasonable and valid to generalise about men as a class, even if NAMALT, because otherwise it is impossible to name the problem.

So what I'm wondering is this: if generalisations about men as a class are defensible in the interests of naming feminist problems, does the same apply to subsets of men? For example if misogynistic violence is a major problem among men of a particular culture in the UK (even relative to the general depressingly high levels of misogynistic violence in the general population, and even if NAM[culture]ALT), are we comfortable spelling that out?

If there are classes of people among whom misogynistic violence is more prevalent than the already high norm in the UK, I want to be able to name the problem. But I think there is often substantial resistance to this. There may well be valid and internally coherent reasons for this, but I think that from a feminist viewpoint we need to think about what's going on here.

I think this is very difficult ground for feminism. I'm loth to give examples, for fear of derailing what's intended as a general musing, but here's a fairly incendiary one. There are persistent and worrying rumours coming out of Sweden that sexual violence against women has skyrocketed in that country in recent years. This is clearly a feminist issue, and one that should surely be tackled vociferously by feminist campaigners. You'd think. However there are also persistent rumours that the overwhelming majority of this violence is perpetrated by recent immigrants of Arab/North African origin. But there is an almost total blackout in the 'respectable' mainstream Swedish press around this; the only news outlets willing to touch it are right-wing outfits such as Breitbart, and frankly bonkers conspiracy mongers like the Gatestone Institute.

The rumours relate to Sweden, but imagine you're a feminist in Sweden hearing these rumours. Do you write it off as lies and hate-mongering? Perhaps it is nothing but lies and hate-mongering. I don't know and can't verify it either way. I hope it is. But perhaps (like Rotherham) it isn't. So should you take a stand for women and say 'I'm going to risk contributing to a right-wing, racist discourse because if there is any possibility that it's true it should be investigated and stamped down on hard, because I want to stick up for the women being assaulted'? Or should we be saying 'Overall I think Swedish women have a pretty easy time of it, considered globally, and I don't want anyone conducting racist pogroms in my name, so I'm going to keep schtum'?

More generally, I am wondering if we need to think explicitly about what, as feminists, we do when there is a conflict between the aims and needs of feminism and those of other 'rights' groups. (It might just be me who needs to think about this; for all I know you've all already worked it out). But I think there are some conflicts, and the Cologne attacks and trans rights thing points to that. And I think there's a general, vague presumption among many people who consider themselves generally right-on that this is not the case, and that all the various needs of the various rights campaigns are either aligned by definition, or can somehow be balanced out. And yet, it seems self-evident to me that the needs of different rights campaigns often conflict; witness trans and women's rights. And when this 'balancing' takes place, again and again it is my observation that it's the rights of women that have to give ground.

My personal stance is that women's rights come first and if there is a conflict between women's rights and another rights campaign I'm for women. But what do others think? I think it's a live issue for feminism, a difficult one (at least difficult for feminists who think of themselves as generally left-wing, anti-racist, right-on etc) and one that I've not seen much discussion on.

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slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 08:30

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2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 08:39

What is "FWR"?

slugseatlettuce · 13/01/2016 08:44

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JaWellNoFine · 13/01/2016 09:04

'As an aside, I've wondered in the past whether this reflects an unconscious belief by 'intersectional' feminists that, in fact, equality for women has been achieved and therefore the main effort to achieve equality for all should prioritise other groups. Personally I disagree with this. Women's rights remain fragile, as we are increasingly seeing, and we will need constant vigilance and some determined clear thinking to stop them being swept away in a flurry of competing rights claims'.

I think the above is true, it was for me until recently. The trans issue and now Cologne have caused me to have a massive rethink about this.

Funnily enough it also introduced me to Miranda Yardleys blog. In there she has a response to an inquiry in which she states that the answer to all of this is basically eradicating misogyny. My DH was like ... It will never happen. It would take generations. However it is so true.

I believe that as woman make up 50% of the population their rights are the most important of all. That is what we should be campaigning for because that is the core issue with so much in society and it WILL result in a better world for every man woman and child.
This should be our focus. 100%

MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 09:06

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Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 09:20

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MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 09:38

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OTheHugeManatee · 13/01/2016 09:49

I think if you just ask 'why aren't people talking about it' people can easily hear that as quite accusatory. It's easy to prompt a defensive rather than a thoughtful response.

'Why do people find this difficult to discuss?' was indeed the question that prompted my thread title. The title itself is my working hypothesis for why it's difficult to discuss. I've appreciated the many thoughtful responses so far, which have prompted me to go away and think, and in some cases refine my ideas.

I'm coming steadily to the idea that 'intersectionality' needs a far more robust critique than it typically receives (though it does, rightly, come in for some stick here). I think as a worldview it's responsible for a number of destructive things not directly relevant to feminism, but one of its core negative impacts has been on feminism. I'll post more about this perhaps when I'm not at work and have more time to think Grin

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Egosumquisum · 13/01/2016 09:50

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MelindaMay · 13/01/2016 10:02

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OTheHugeManatee · 13/01/2016 10:24

It may be a different situation in the UK, but part of what may be fuelling it in continental Europe is a feeling that racism is the absolute worst thing ever, far worse than misogyny, and that therefore if women have to tolerate a bit of misogyny in order to avoid fanning the flames of racism then so be it. If I were to speculate, I would situate this in the context of the atrocities of Nazi Germany, and various post-imperial hangovers prevalent throughout Western Europe. Add to that the ever more fragmented, specialised and quick-to-offend style of identity politics we've imported from America, and the postmodern belief that speech is the same as action (ie words can constitute actual violence) and you have a situation where

  • generalisations about specific cultures or ethnicities are taboo because post-imperial guilt
  • there is a vague sense that the West has to atone for something
  • women's rights are seen as a problem 'out there' ie beyond the West, but as basically a done deal 'over here'
  • speech which is negative about minorities seen as 'vulnerable' is conflated with violence and hence repressed

Add all that together, top it off with the fact that most (I don't say all, but most) feminists are human and don't want to feel the full force of a twitch-hunting mob castigating them as racist hate-mongers and I don't think there is anything strange about a reluctance in some quarters to say 'We should stop importing North African men because if you have too many of them in one place they're a threat to women's safety'. This is in no way a failing of individual feminists. It's a bind that has been set up by the nexus of ideas, discursive patterns and favourite topics that coalesces broadly under the banner of 'pro-equalities'.

To put it another way, it's unusual for someone to describe themselves as a feminist without also being anti-racism, generally left-leaning and concerned with equalities generally. That makes it very difficult to say something that's taboo under the 'anti-racist' rubric, for fear of losing a part of one's political identity.

For that reason, I'm arguing that clear thinking is needed. For instance: I think that in order to try and be 'universal' feminism has found itself dissolving into a campaign for equalities generally. I think what's happened then is that this new 'equalities' thing can't cope with conflicts between diversity and women's rights. So should we abandon women's rights as an individual cause? Or should we abandon the idea of feminism as something universal?

Personally I'm happy to defend feminism as I know it (voting rights, equal rights in the workplace, freedom from violence in public and private life) as something specific to this geography, history and culture, rather than try and propagate it worldwide as something 'universal'. I also think that has the advantage of opening space for the evolution in other places of feminisms appropriate to other cultures, and hence of a flexible movement that can collaborate cross-culturally without any one version feeling the need to claim absolute truth and subsume another.

Taking that as a stance frees me to say 'well no, actually I don't have to make space for all these other equalities in my campaign for women's rights. No, I don't have to budge up and make space for men who think they're women. No, I don't have to stay silent about mass sexual assault by North African men, because I don't care if you think I'm a racist - I'm not, but my focus is women's rights and they're being eroded here. And no, I don't care that you want to do feminism differently in India and no, I'm not trying to colonise you with my white Western ways. You have a different history and set of priorities, do what you like, if I can support you I will but this is our history and culture and priorities and I claim the right to stand for those.'

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OTheHugeManatee · 13/01/2016 10:26

Sorry, Melinda we x-posted there. Interesting thoughts though quite a different take from my own. Will have a think and respond later Smile

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TheXxed · 13/01/2016 11:25

The UK feels zero imperial guilt they never payed reparations, they still hold onto stolen art work and artefacts, slave trade names are still on street names and museums and they still have statues to colonialist.

Racism is rife, you are more likely to past over for a job, arrested, receive poor health care, die in child birth, live in poverty all this despite black and minority ethinic children doing better in school.

DadWasHere · 13/01/2016 11:50

I think in this case, rather than looking at these men as a subset of ME culture, or a subset of Islam, we should look at them as a subset of men.

Tortuous logic MelindaMay, if you can define a subset you can target it specifiably. Whether you target it legitimately or not is what makes it an 'ism', not that you define it in the first place or target it after its defined.

If you take men from a culture that has a low opinion of women and transport them to a culture that has a markedly higher opinion of women you make trouble for women, unless you are very selective in who you admit or are able to alter their personal morality or make them aware of, and respect, law. Is that incorrect? The same logic should work in reverse, you take men from a culture that respects women more than your own, overall it should be a net benefit for women.

Everyone knows that the treatment of women varies tremendously around the world. Women got to vote in the UK in 1928 but women got to vote in Saudi Arabia only last year... in local elections... in a nation not ruled by a democracy. Perhaps they will even be allowed to drive cars one day. What a novel idea.

There would certainly be men in UK that see women as little more than dirt, but I believe there are proportionally fewer of them than in some other cultures, yet proportionately more than in others. Saying it matters little because it should be mostly about the Y chromosome is just ludicrous to me. People are, profoundly, products of their cultures and experiences, not simply just their sex.

grimbletart · 13/01/2016 12:07

Applauds OTheHugeManatee.

I also don't care if I am accused of being racist because I know I'm not. I don't care if I am accused of being right wing (apparently the most heinous sin of all) because I know I'm not.

What is the difference in those of us who don't care about being accused of attitudes we don't hold and those that do?

I'm not sure, but it may be that those of us who don't care don't hold the view that being left wing means you are somehow morally superior with higher values than those who are not left wing. Most people like to feel they are decent and compassionate and are reluctant to say anything that produces sneers about racism (for example). So they are caught in the moral blackmail of strident left wingers and pious establishment 'liberals'.

The belief that therefore small c conservatives and centrists and even moderate Conservatives are somehow less moral or ethical seeps into you as if by osmosis.

I've noticed it a lot, I've thought about it a lot, I've questioned myself a lot. But at the end of it I know I am not racist, anti-immigrant or anything like that when I voice worries about what is going on with immigration policy, with cultural differences, with severe concerns about multiculturalism (as opposed to integration into a host country's values) etc.

The left's policy and that of the current political establishments of trying to pretend there has not been a sea change in Europe, of trying to ignore concerns generally by accusations of racism, of being scared of fuelling right-wingery or being seen as anti-immigrant if they express worries over the difficulties of integrating an influx of (mainly) men from vastly different cultures is pathetic. Sooner or later they will have to face the issues instead of sticking their fingers in their ears and going la la la.

Women are sick of being shoved under the bus, and you only have to read Doris Lessing, for example, or see the past attitudes of some trade unions to understand that being left wing does not mean being women-friendly.

bluebolt · 13/01/2016 12:18

I find that the silence and the deflecting by many feminist will lead us to societies where we need men to protect their women. The objects of society that many feminists have challenged for centuries. Not only are we handing back our control to the far right, we are handing it back to men to protect us.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 12:31

Sorry, I haven't had time to RTFT and I do intend to. Very, very quickly though:

  1. My understanding is that when you do class analysis, it can only really withstand the NAMALT whataboutery etc when it is punching up. If you are using it to further marginalise an already marginalised group, it is adding to rather than addressing oppression. It's not that you are doing class analysis but stop when it comes to race. It's that the PROPER class analysis here is men in relation to women, female value in relation to men. I think it is really telling that white women do become suddenly valuable in relation to BME men. I think that tells us a lot, actually.
  1. The thing about the mass sexual assualts in Cologne - surely I can't have been the only person thinking, this is like every town centre I've ever been in on a Saturday night. Women of all ethnicities are treated in this way routinely by men all the bloody time, and it's only worthy of reporting when? The media aren't really reporting this because they are concerned about women, are they?
  1. To my eyes, the thing the perpetrators here and everywhere else have in common is that they are all men. I feel infuriated by white men/ the liberal elite only seeing these crimes when they feel like the numbers are good enough to extricate themselves once again from the discussion. Try and raise the issue of open sexual harrassment on British streets in any other context, and you are a man hating feminist/ a slut who brings it on herself by drinking, talking to men and wearing dresses.

4.I think talking about race in relation to this is another way of letting white men off. It's a red herring so we stop talking about men and we start talking about something else, race, religion, colour, creed. These 'north african' or whatthefuckever they were called men just look like men to me. Masculinity the world over looks fucked to me.

5.I am not throwing women under the bus by refusing to join in a discussion about how backward all the migrants are. I'm keeping the focus on the real problem, that is men of all kinds in relation to women. I'd be happy to discuss this issue in racial terms when bme sexism stops looking exactly like the logical and rational extreme of white sexism.

  1. Worrying about being called racist in discussions which touch on race is like the calling card of white privilege. There is no nice way of saying this, and I am aware of saying it to nice, well meaning people, but seriously, if you are worried about being called racist, what you are performing is your racial privilege. People who talk against racial prejudice in discussions like this are immediately shut down with 'you are calling me racist'. Privileging your own feeling that it is not nice to be called racist over the actual problem of creating racist discourses and challenging racist structures is definitionally a racial privilege.

7.Not all the perpetrators of this kind of crime are BME, but they are all men. I couldn't give a shit if BME are disproportionally represented in this. Because the salient fact, the thing that makes them act like bloody colonial powers in relation to women, is that they are men. White men get to realise their masculinity by hiring prozzies, having huge cars, the biggest paycheques and expensive divorces, doing their corporate entertainment at strip clubs and running the world. Get rid of Islam, is patriarchy gone? No. Educate everyone in the ways of the white liberal elite, is patriarchy gone? No. Are women safe if everyone is an atheist leftie? Hell no. Patriarchy and masculinity are the problem here. Everything else is an accent, a particular style, a particular way of doing your sexism. It all looks the bloody same to my eyes.

I will not start punching down to already marginalised people. Not because I'm afraid of being called racist but because I think it means we take our eyes off the problem which is the global patriarchy. Patriarchy looks different in different cultures, and expresses itself in a number of ways but always adds up to the subjugation of women.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 12:34

I think it was heavily weighted more to "a" than to "b" Melinda.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 12:46

2. The thing about the mass sexual assualts in Cologne - surely I can't have been the only person thinking, this is like every town centre I've ever been in on a Saturday night. Women of all ethnicities are treated in this way routinely by men all the bloody time, and it's only worthy of reporting when? The media aren't really reporting this because they are concerned about women, are they?

Really!
This was far beyond rowdy drunks going to far. This was a whole new phenomena in its scale and organisation. Which town centres are you thinking of? Town centres where it is typical for over 200 women to claim they have been sexual assualted in the course of just hours by a crowd of a 1000 men? I've been to Mardi Gras and some festivals where I've had my bottom pinched in the crowd. I didn't like it. What these women endured was far more terrifying and I imagine it will stay with them forever. How could you minimise it like that?

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 12:54

I am not minimising. I do not think it is extreme to imagine 200 sexual assaults in a town centre anywhere. I think it is minimising to deny that sexual assault happens on a massive scale everywhere. I think we don't report or recognise European sexism. I think the outrage over Cologne is what we should feel daily about women here.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 12:55

I'm coming steadily to the idea that 'intersectionality' needs a far more robust critique than it typically receives

yes, yes, yes

Just when you start pinning something down, you are forced to tie yourself in knots and be sunk by the weight of all the problems in the world.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 12:55

"Rowdy drunks going too far" is minimising, in my eyes.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 12:57

I do not think it is extreme to imagine 200 sexual assaults in a town centre anywhere.

What happened in Cologne is on public record now. What other examples outside of NYE 2016 have you got? Actual incidents, not just what you capable of imagining.

bluebolt · 13/01/2016 12:57

It is minimising, it was not an average Saturday night. Many of these women were had raped openly in public. As a women I always feel secure around many men it is only when isolated I am more fearful. This is about men assaulting women and other men enabling them to do this. I think you should move if this is your Saturday night.

OutsSelf · 13/01/2016 12:58

I don't think refusing to qualify sexism in racial or cultural terms is tying yourself in knots or being sunk. I think it is keeping your eye on the problem to say, if there were a crowd of 'migrant' 'refugee' 'north african' women on the street, everyone would have been safe. Masculinity is the deciding factor here. Let's not get distracted by race.