General Trans thread part 2

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive

Yeah that works for me! But I think itll's contention is that it's men who uphold the rule of law, rather than people in general.

Men are both the cause of and the solution to the problem apparently !

Itll, I'm not following you - perhaps you could clarify?

Women, because of their relative weakness are not able to defend themselves effectively from men. We need "good men" to keep the "bad men" under lock and key. Since feminism is only interested in women's liberation from patriarchy and it's a commonly held view that men cannot be feminists, then it seems a bit, i dunno, unfair ? to expect them to give us what we tell them we need, whether that's safety from other men or whatever.

So "good men" who are charged with upholding the laws and morals of society shouldn't be expected to give a fuck about women unless they get something out of it?

I thought you didn't like distinguishing the two camps ? NAMALT is usually used grudgingly ? It's not often (ever?) said that the majority of the burden for "upholding the laws and morals of society" is expected to fall on "good men".

It was what I perceived you, personally, to be saying. Not what I think. Why shouldn't men in the police and in positions of authority want to uphold women's rights without directly getting something out of it? It's you who has put that construction on it.

That's a bit "misandrist" surely?

Men only uphold law and order because they get something out of it? So you think that men are incapable of morality and altruism? Or of wishing to protect sisters, wives, mothers, children?

Of course I don't think that men are incapable of acting morally. A large part of feminism is analysing the behaviour of "bad men" then labelling it as the behaviour of all men, and then getting pissed off if people point out that most men are not the ones causing the problem. Yet it does seem to be acknowledged that without buy in from men, feminism is somewhat a waste of time, this seems to fly in the face of much of the "i don't give a shit what men think" line....

I feel uncomfortable with the view that men cannot get involved with feminism because they aren't women.

It's a rather transactional view of human interactions and motivations. I think most people are better than that.

I expect the legal system and the police force to uphold the rights of disabled people, children and the elderly too, strangely...

It's not "bad men" it's men as a class. Who both benefit from, and are harmed by the patriarchal system we have in place. Imo, it's in men's interests to dismantle patriarchy, because although they benefit from it in many ways, it is also very oppressive of them and prevents many of them from having the freedom to live authentic lives.

"I feel uncomfortable with the view that men cannot get involved with feminism because they aren't women."

There is some discussion around whether men who support feminism should call themselves feminist allies or feminists.

I don't think many people say men "shouldn't get involved" with feminism, do they? Where have you seen that?

The people on the threads in aibu and site stuff (who may of course be here too!) have created a fb group. Fuck it, my real name is coming out of the TERF closet.

Just heard back from George about the Transgender Review:

"Many thanks for getting in touch. We are very happy to add your name to the list to keep you posted about the review.

I am attaching a link to its terms of reference. www.gov.uk/government/speeches/review-into-the-care-and-management-of-transgender-offenders

If you have particular points you want to make, please just send them in, in whatever format suits you. Otherwise, we expect to have some structured questions that we need opinions on coming round in February.

Good wishes, and many thanks for getting in touch.

George

George Barrow
Transgender Review co-ordinator
[email protected]"

Thanks for the reminder, Watchers. Just sent my email off.

stephaniedaviesarai.com/cwc/uncategorized/maria-millers-report-puts-feminists-in-an-impossible-position/

The biggest shift lies in the fact that we were never obliged to see transsexual men as ‘real women, the same as any other woman’ – because we all know that you can’t actually change sex, it’s a biological impossibility. If the government had stopped there and called for tighter laws to protect this distinct group from discrimination, at the same time as ensuring women’s continued protection as a sex-based category, there would be no problem. Perhaps we could have then examined the issue of male violence against transsexuals and worked on real protections for that group.

Instead, the report demands that women accept that ‘gender’ is the important distinction between men and women in areas where it’s really not.

From Stuff's link. This is precisely the crux of the issue.

Great article, Stuff. It's a great one to link to for info for anyone writing to MPs etc.

Is that your blog stuff? I just shared it on fb about ten mins ago!

i got emailed
"We welcome comments from all interested parties, so if you would like to contribute to the review, please email George Barrow – the official who is coordinating the review within the Ministry of Justice – at [email protected] and we will ensure that your name is added to the mailing group. Please feel free to share this with anyone who you feel may want to register their interest and be kept up-to-date with developments."

consider this shared

No not mine. I'm still trying to articulate why this is such an outrage and thought what she days is a good start.

Says not days

It's great, Stuff. Hope you don't mind, I've linked it in the threads in AIBU and Site Stuff about the Olympics decision, as the penny is dropping for more and more people what is happening to women's rights.