General Trans thread part 2

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive

Bob is taking part in the mens event, Stan is taking part in the second tier mens event

Born men competing in women's sports are cheating, let's be honest. I wonder if it will also lead to an increases in performance enhancing drug taking, when women try to keep up with the men?

It won't be cheating anymore.

Who knew that Little Britain was, in actual fact, almost Delphic in it's prescience?

Haha, yes not so funny now

Plonit just a driveby to say thanks for the mailing list info - now done!

What do we think the chances are of Iran ever sending a female athlete to the Olympics again?

I came here specifically to talk about this sports business, having just read the news. I am shocked. Rather makes a mockery of the advances in sports science etc when all the knowledge we have about the human body, how to train it and perfect it, can all be overridden by a trans person.

Much as people want to deny it, there are physical differences which can't be overcome by way gender you feel you are.

I'm not expressing myself well, I know. I am just upset... Surely this is the beginning of the end for women's sport? It hasn't even gained equality to male sport yet, and its already on the path to destruction.

I don't know what the answer is. Because I do think that trans people should be able to complete at a professional level. The problem is, against who? (Each other, I suppose!)

Dont know if its been mentioned already, but as well as this meaning tw can compete in female events, it also technically means tm can compete in male events. Except there we run into a problem, as they're not gonna be up to the male standards! So they end up competing in the female group too and we end up with "masculine born men" and "everybody else"

I agree a transman is unlikely to qualify in the male events. But presumably if they are taking testosterone, they can't compete in the women's?

Some may suggest that assuming all tm take testosterone is transphobic...

Thinking about it, could tm even take part in the mens events if on testosterone?

Too true, Beyond! I consider my wrist slapped.

Although, the article I read suggested that whilst gender reassignment surgery is not required to qualify, hormone replacement therapy for at least a year is.

Does this mean the very rules designed to be inclusive are in fact transphobic?

This is a mess.

This sports stuff I mean.

Just as women were starting to actually get somewhere in sport. The London Olympics were the first to have women competing in every sport, women's rugby and football are getting mentioned more, there's a woman playing cricket at county level on the men's team etc. I'm not interested in sport myself but I'm a firm believer that women should have the same opportunities in sport as men. A man who's a good amateur will beat most professional women at anything involving strength or speed - this is why we have women's competitions in the first place. A year of artificially lowered testosterone levels is not going to undo the effects of male puberty on height, reach, bone density etc - we've seen this time and time again with the likes of Fallon Fox, Gabrielle Ludwig and Michelle Dumaresq.

Surely this is the beginning of the end for women's sport?

No this is the end of women's sport, can anyone name a sport where the women's world record is bigger/ longer/ faster than the men's?

Sorry forgot to say
Possibly the only way transmen could compete would be if the gymnastics floor became about delicacy and grace like the women's is.

I think the closest would be ultramarathon but the men's records are still about 10% better than the women's.

I'mm thinking gymnastics and rhythmic gymnastics will be the only sports where women will be at an advantage over TWs because being smaller, shorter and having extreme flexibility which is much harder for men to achieve will confer an advantage.

Until they make the women's competition more like the men's to make it fairer.

Have the IOC not done research into this and found that after a number of years on hormones any benefits a man has had from puberty is reversed?

Although I can't see it reducing someone's height.

I think their reasoning was more that if they'd had x amount of medical intervention then they were probably not trying to do it just for an advantage, that it's fine to throw women under the bus and that nobody gives a fuck about women's sport anyway.

Ah yes, "Not good enough to get on to the PGA Tour - considering quitting your dream of being professional golfer ? Simple, all you have to do is say that you feel like a woman and you'll get straight on to the WPGA tour, it'll be easy money for you.".....said no one, ever.

Fallon Fox, Michelle Dumaresq, Gabrielle Ludwig. All mediocre as men but pretty much unbeaten as women.

Not to mention the fact that Fallon Fox almost beat a woman to death in the ring.