Islamaphobia?

[Onnedheil]

So, as feminists, women, fighting against patriarchy, against rape culture against male violence to women. My question is this.

Are we suddenly now supposed to be supporting a religion that is an actual rape culture, Openly accepted paedophilia, actual supremacy of toxic masculinity an actual patriarchy Which is responsible for female genital mutilation , based on a the word of a paedophile warmonger who propagates a monotheist singular God who is male .

And when Anyone, speaks out about these things We're labelled as a racist and as islamaphobe and told to silence our voice for the religion of peace?

Have I ended up in the twilight zone or something?

Moon you hit the nail on the head there with your observation.

I actually think if people are not controlled in one way or form the world will be chaos. Worse than what we have now. Some people are just horrible and it does not matter whether they have God in them or not. It will always manifest it self in one way or another.

But watched people are good people, look no further than the Internet and how much trolling goes on under the guise of anonymity.

That is because some people are just not bright enough to think beyond the trolling. They forget that they can be traced.

Yes they are dim debs it's an illusion but even we here on this thread or MUMSNET in general are abit less inhibited because we are all behind a computer screen, less pressure to be nice so more - let's say - frank. The abuse of that by some people has meant recently we have all started signing in by email account so less anonymity than before: a good example of watched people are good people.

The concept of 'being watched' whether by the all seeing eye of a deity or a CCTV camera is part of how large numbers of humans from varied backgrounds unknown to each other regulate and maintain society. Rather than faith in A deity and heaven and hell or reincarnation, good karma/bad karma, it's in the power of the state to enforce the law. Is it the speed cameras we keep to the speed limit for? Would we pay as much into the welfare system If it wasn't a tax that the HMRC could chase one to the ends of the earth for? Do I honour my creditors because I know they can put a black mark on my credit record that would mean others wouldn't 'trust' me to pay on time? Britain and western society in general is far more individualistic than most, 'live the way you like be true to yourself' etc but even so there must still be some sort of nod to communal norms and expectations. There's a whole range of behaviour before one gets to 'do not lie/steal/cheat/kill', somebody could avoid all those things but still not be an easy or 'good' person to live by, work with, etc.

I know on Mumsnet there is this tendency amongst atheists to get talking about religious belief in terms of science and the God of the gaps, the only mention on the social pros of religion either the much used 'religion is the opium of the people' Or as an emotional security blanket. But there is alot more to say and study than that. I find The older I get and being a mother now raising children I appreciate stability and security far more than I did pre children. The importance of the commune as a support in bringing the helpless baby upto adulthood across near 2 decades isn't just for humans. the mother lioness raising her young in a pride with others has more chance that her offspring will grow to adulthood even if something happens to her than the mother cheetah raising her children on her own in the wild. I spoke about it in an earlier post yesterday but the importance of the social networks and shared commonalities/ responsibilities religions provide even in largely self sufficient technologically advanced secular socieities I think that women have a particular affinity with.

Moonstruck - signing in by email account doesn't mean less anonymity. Just google free email accounts.

"You are questioning the proposition that some people only behave well because of constraints their religion, because a god is watching"

The reason why her question to me didn't make sense was because it wasn't my "proposition". It was slug's Catholic friend who said atheists must have no morals or principles because they don't believe in God, the obvious implication being that she believes people can't behave morally or with good principles if they don't believe in God.

(as deb said it can all be tracked anyway no matter how many multiple screen names or accounts. Wasnt the purpose though to add another layer of bother for trolls?

Cote - I took your "proposition" to be:

Clearly there are people who are moral and decent only because they think a deity is watching them. How much more awful would people act towards each other if they realize that it is all just a ludicrous story?

I was questioning this - I'm glad at least one person understood that. I did politely ask whether you were being sarcastic when you'd said the above and, if not, I'd try to rephrase the question but just got a "forget it. sigh" response…

moonstruck - do you feel that there are negative aspects for women being part of such a network of "shared commonalities/responsibilities"?

laurie - Was it no clearer after my last post?

Catholic friend assumes atheists can't be moral, which means she thinks people won't be moral unless there is a God watching over them.

What does that say about her? Do you think she would act morally if one day she stops believing in God?

This isn't about me or what I think.

Moonstruck, whilst I believe that "being watched" is a part of what makes people good, along with what your parents taught you, I also think people take it on board, question as to why certain rules exist and internalise the altruism until it becomes part of them.

It is probably easier to have an overarching God telling you you should do something just because and not question it but that doesn't mean that humans wouldn't have progressed without it. And more often than not religion has acted as a brake on moral progress.

Those babies you talk about. Look at the Magdelene laundries, look at any woman who has ever been stoned for adultery. That's not an example of religion being morally good and humane, but entirely the opposite.

Moon you absolutely speak my language. I agree with everything your saying.

Cote I agree with what your saying and she was not being sarcastic.

Theydontknow religion, laws, security cameras and the other things a like are sometimes not for the benefit of the individual. It's to keep society in check. Morals are human construct. We decide what we think should be good and we decide how to police it. It's all about control.

For example if you can't control your people you will not be able to have a government. Every now and then you have the anomaly of humans who rebel and come up with something new. Best example is Galileo being persecuted for saying that the earth was not the centre of the universe.
Or the suffragettes campaigners in the sixties. Things like that is always a shock to society but with time we people start to understand. I think that is why you here the saying "shock to the system ". Someone has done something that is out of the ordinary. Be it morally or intellectually.

I don't actually think religion benefit women most of the time. You have got to be rebellious at

Laurie you asked: 'moonstruck - do you feel that there are negative aspects for women being part of such a network of "shared commonalities/responsibilities"

I think we all as people not just women give up some things concerning freedom/labour/autonomy in order for the protection/security of/in a group. We pay high taxes in order for the social safety net to encompass as many of our society who would be destitute without it: that 'from each according to his ability to each according to his need' is not a natural law but social conditioning. We live in a high surveillance society and give up our privacy but benefit from low crime rates and higher rates of solving crimes. Someone may go for a public sector job which gives them Lower pay but then get the job security and non financial perks. Conversely someone else might choose a private sector job in a big corp and give up long term security for financial gain. It all depends on whether one thinks it's worth it or not.
earlier it was spoken about how there's patriarchy in all circles and misogyny in religions, amongst prominent atheists, western feminism is not isolated in a vacuum but has individualism and liberalism underpinning it. That is its own ideology and whilst some parts are great some are not so. If it's ones norm a woman gets accustomed to it - shrugs her shoulders and say iyeah there are drawbacks but benefits far outweigh the cons. it's like the difference between a capitalist patriarchy where women go under the knife for labiaplasties to make their genitals like a porn star or a patriarchy where women go under the knife for hymenoplasties to make their genitals like a virgin.

I mentioned babies and the young: the care and feeding and sleeping and nursing when they're sick and teaching them life skills, educating and nurturing their social behaviour to get on with others, mental health, self esteem etc etc are all so time and resource consuming - lasts for years- that it wouldn't let you do anything else except for the 'help of a village'. On an individual level i have a mother who helps me with my children and takes them from me when they're sick/during the holidays/ when I have big deadlines at work. I get nagged to distraction by her which is a price my best friend let's say isn't prepared to pay but I don't mind because I see it as part and parcel. I give up some of my privacy (and right to peace) in order to have her practical help and advice in raising my young.

scale upto bigger social groups and then a different motivation and purpose enters, no longer the child of the child of my womb, that's when you get these golden rule things happening but also whether it's the christian 'do good to spread God's love' or the islamic 'do good to earn God's love', either take the place of give to receive and with that the pressure off an individual to reciprocate or place back in the time bank box straight away. I hope that made sense.

Gah, sorry theydonknow Id written out a long reply to you only for my phone to freeze and now that post having disappeared off into the ether. I had to google magdalen laundries as I hadn't known about them but they certainly don't fit in with my understanding and conception of what Jesus said/did although a Christian would know more. I want to come back tomorrow and explain the non Quranic origin of stoning for adultery and other unfair laws that fall on muslim women disproportionately with no or weak basis in religious scripture.

I have bookmarked that because I love and agree with all that you have said.

Thanks debbriana

So feminists are also racist as well as man-haters?

Slug if religion didn't exist something else would be in place. One of the other things I can think of is superstition. They must have played a bigger part at some point more than religion did. The biggest reason for most of it was to protect people. There is always a hidden meaning behind and I always find it quite funny when people take literally. For example don't break a mirror for fear of seven year bad luck. Any sensible person nowadays would know that it can't be true. But for someone who believes in bad luck it carries a lot of weight on what it means for them.

this would have been the meaning behind it

If a servant broke a mirror, it would be approximately seven years’ worth of wages to pay it back, as they were very expensive at the time.

In Roman times, if the servant broke a mirror, they had to make a new one and the way they did that was by polishing stone until it reflected. That would take a long time, presumably seven years.

Your friend did that because God watches their every move. Ten Commandments is a set of morals. Dos and don't for Christians. Breaking any of those can lead you to hell if you don't repent. It's like going to a parent and saying look I have done abc can you please for give me because I have sinned.

I think Jesus broke one of the Ten Commandments too.

To make you even understand your friend better is by looking at how parents tell their children that Father Christmas only brings presents for those who have behaved all year round. That is all based on morals. Be an upstanding child in our home and I shall reward you. On the other hand, the parent is being immoral by lying to the child. It's only morally right if the parent is utilitarian. If they fallow the Ten Commandments then I would assume they would have to repent because they have broken the law of the bible.

Next time you meet your friend ask them whether they lie about Father Christmas being real or not. "Thou shalt not lie" if she does, she no better than you morally.

See I think we would run as a society with or without religion, because we are genetically programmed to be altruistic.

I don't see much evidence of that.

Mind you, we do have some evidence for psychopathic behaviours being genetically influenced and those with such traits seem to do very well exploiting the more altruistic in society.

Society is, always has been and seems likely always to be about power dynamics; The form those dynamics take will shift, but hierachy and control will always be a component of any prolonged human social structure.

Religion gives too much power to the manipulator.

It was easier to see through communist or Nazi psychopaths.

There is no advantage to being a psychopath if there is no one to manipulate.

A single isolated individual neither benefits nor suffers from psychopathy, or any other social dysfunction.