Islamaphobia?

[Onnedheil]

So, as feminists, women, fighting against patriarchy, against rape culture against male violence to women. My question is this.

Are we suddenly now supposed to be supporting a religion that is an actual rape culture, Openly accepted paedophilia, actual supremacy of toxic masculinity an actual patriarchy Which is responsible for female genital mutilation , based on a the word of a paedophile warmonger who propagates a monotheist singular God who is male .

And when Anyone, speaks out about these things We're labelled as a racist and as islamaphobe and told to silence our voice for the religion of peace?

Have I ended up in the twilight zone or something?

[LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]

I am sorry that happened to you OP and it must be difficult to process.

I think no-platforming generally is a very serious problem in itself, while of course death threats are not on, from any source.

[VestalVirgin]

My own experience is Irish culture being caught up with religion.

Wasn't there a case in Ireland recently where a woman was killed by the government by denying her an abortion even though the pregnancy threatened her life?

I think it is dangerous to get caught up in blaming Islam. It distracts from the misogyny going on in Christian countries.

Now, for women from Islamic countries, blaming Islam is the way to go, as it is part of the patriarchy they fight.

But to those of us who live in predominantly Christian countries, it is dangerous to look at Islamic countries and pity the women there instead of cleaning our own doorsteps, so to speak.

[Dervel]

Native UK Muslim populations do appear to be more susceptible to radicalisation than migrant ones:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/radicalised-muslims-in-uk-more-likely-to-be-well-heeled-9754062.html

Vestal I'm afraid I have to disagree in the strongest possible terms. Not to the lack of safe convictions secured in the US, that as you quite rightly point out out needs addressing everywhere, but in even making the comparison. Under sharia law the woman had actually has no say she is required to bring forward four male witnesses, and if they find against her she automatically guilty of sexual immorality and stoned.

I agree with sentiments that the whole problem may well be cultural, Indonsia is an 87% Muslim nation, with 18% representation of female MPs (not all that far behind the UK. Women make up 51% of the workforce and they have had a female president. So it's obviously possible for Islam to coexist with progressive women's rights movements, however it is distinctly difficult to even ask the question of where the batshittery exists, and anything resembling a reasoned critique without being accused of this or that -ism or -phobia.

[UtterlyClueless]

There's a massive difference between supporting Islam and not giving them shit and treating them differently for their beliefs.

Islamaphobia is for people who are uneducated as far as I'm concerned.

[HermioneWeasley]

Christianity is no picnic for women either, but I can think of plenty of Christian countries where women at least have equal rights in law, and can't think of any Muslim ones (Indonesia maybe?) where women do.

If you were to draw a Venn diagram of misogyny, homophobia, intolerance of alternative beliefs, current terrorist activity and Islam, the overlap would be pretty big.

But it makes you islamophobic to say that. Even if you come from a Muslim country, you were raised as a Muslim and half your family are Muslim, apparently white middle class lefties know better than you do. Would it have been "Catholic-phobic" to criticise the Magdelene laundries, or the protection of paedophiles in the church, or are those perfectly legitimate complaints?

The idea that Goldsmiths LGBT and women's societies have rushed to support the ISOC in shutting down completely legitimate criticism of Islam, is a nonsense.

[HermioneWeasley]

vestal can you name a European Christian country that doesn't allow women to drive or travel without her owner/man's permission and will stone her to death for being raped?

I think it's ok to say those are outrageous human rights abuses we all need to fight against, as well as wish we had closed the gender pay gap here and the other equality issues we campaign for in our societies.

[grimbletart]

As a feminist I could not bring myself to subscribe to any organised religion.

They all offend my core belief that men and women are equal. (And no, I don't fall for their equal but different roles crap either).

Some are worse than others but all are unacceptable to me.

[Elendon]

I dislike any religion that upholds the patriarchal viewpoint, that includes atheism btw. All seek to promote inequality.

Are there any religions that don't do this?

[Elendon]

Sorry Grimbletart.

You and I sing from the same hymn sheet .

[grimbletart]

In the main they decide which roles are inferior and then allocate them to women.

I believe Sikhism started off on a basis of equality but then veered off down the usual channels.

[howtorebuild]

Science, a belief based on a guess until proven correct, that hasn't got all the answers yet.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Organised religion is a problem. It's organised by and for men. Whether it's burkas, or purity rings from the US; all shit. It is prejudice to single out Islam for criticism and ignore all other aspects of the patriarchy.

In an enlightened Western democracy I am expected to cover my chest and men aren't. I fail to see how hair is different in any real way to breasts.

Face covering is something else from a psychological POV. I struggle with that one.

[VestalVirgin]

I agree. I also think it's worth pointing out that there more things than religious belief that the people enacting these and the examples Vestal put forward have in common... They are male led. So maybe the problem isn't Islam or Christianity, but men.

That's my point.

Not saying that Islamic countries are not usually worse for women - just, it is by degree. Christianity is not inherently better. (and if you count Mormons as Christian, which I am not sure is valid, then they do some pretty horrid things, too)

The atheist community, I have heard, is also pretty misogynist.

Christianity was way less patriarchal in its early days, and allowed female priests, but then changed ... I think patriarchy will twist anything influential to its purposes, be it religion, science or something else.

[VestalVirgin]

Face covering is something else from a psychological POV. I struggle with that one.

Face covering puts women at risk from not only vitamine D deficiency, but car accidents and the like.

And it also erases the person, in a way, so yes, that's a difference.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

That would be interesting Buffy.

[almondpudding]

'I dislike any religion that upholds the patriarchal viewpoint, that includes atheism btw. All seek to promote inequality.

Are there any religions that don't do this?'

Atheism isn't a religion. That would be like saying mysticism is a religion. Some atheists are adherents of a number of different religions and some are not.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

People have issues with privatives. The absence of religion is not another religion.

[Theydontknowweknowtheyknow]

I agree with the OP to a certain extent because I've been threatened with violence and called racist because I've spoken out against what I view as sexist practices that are practised by some in the name of Islam (my careful wording there is an example of my fear of being misunderstood)

I'm also pretty vocal against Christianity's outdated sexism. The difference is, as OP points out, criticising one's own religion (in terms of what I was brought up with) feels more comfortable than criticisIng another person's which feels disrespectful and ignorant. And in the case of Islam, slightly scary.

If Islamophobia is a fear of Islam than I'd say I'm pretty much afraid of all Abrahamic religions. But it's important to be able to criticise religion without being accused of hating the people who follow the various religions, because let's face it, most people follow the religion they're born into and the customs that they've been brought up to be comfortable with.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

The atheist community, I have heard, is also pretty misogynist

What is the "atheist community " ? I'm an atheist, I am not aware of being part of any community.

It's not a valid comparison. There are no "atheist community leaders " telling women to dress modestly, cover your face,not drive cars, not leave the house without a male relative , don't use contraception, don't have an abortion.

There may be individual male atheists who hold some or all of those views but they are not supported by a church framework to enforce them.

[BertrandRussell]

There is no such thing as an "atheist community" that includes all atheists. Atheists belong to mAny other communities and interest groups. There does seem to be, however, a particular group of sceptic/atheist intellectuals and commentators who are mind bogglingly misogynist...

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

And if they had a religion they wouldn't be?

I really don't see the relevance of saying some atheist men are horrible too.

There is no tenet of an organised atheist group holding as part of its core belief that abortion, sex outside of marriage or homosexuality is wrong and women have to go around covered from head to foot.

[Elendon]

Atheism is like a religion with some people, in that you're either with us or against us. It's a view that is paternalistic. It's also misogynistic. Hence the similarities with religions.

Veiling of women has been a measure to subjugate women since the onset of patriarchy. It was introduced for a reason. Women were measured as livestock. Rape and plunder. Destroy and conquer.