Islamaphobia?

[Onnedheil]

So, as feminists, women, fighting against patriarchy, against rape culture against male violence to women. My question is this.

Are we suddenly now supposed to be supporting a religion that is an actual rape culture, Openly accepted paedophilia, actual supremacy of toxic masculinity an actual patriarchy Which is responsible for female genital mutilation , based on a the word of a paedophile warmonger who propagates a monotheist singular God who is male .

And when Anyone, speaks out about these things We're labelled as a racist and as islamaphobe and told to silence our voice for the religion of peace?

Have I ended up in the twilight zone or something?

I actually don't have a problem with saying that atheism - in its most minimal sense - isn't a belief system. It clearly isn't, in the sense of a series of connected beliefs that form an internally coherent whole.

But atheism in its most minimal sense is often combined with a set of assumptions about the nature of reality that are commonly held together -commonly enough to be considered self-evident - we've been talking about some of them on this thread. Others would include the importance of personal autonomy, and the right to defend-determination.

An anthropologist looking from outside might well describe these as a system of belief, even though the systemic nature of these assumptions, values and beliefs insn't visible from the inside.

In that sense, I think it might be fair to describe atheism as part of a system of belief.

Lass there is no point in making a fuss. If your faith cannot withstand people writing books or plays or cartoons then it is not strong faith. God is big enough to take a few jokes and even to be analysed and though about critically. As a person of faith I do question and examine my beliefs if I don't then i am following blindly instead of thinking about it and believing.

"the knee jerk assumption I'd make that someone who identified themselves as an atheist (and I think that context is important because atheism is often sated as a sort of opposite to religious belief in that context) would also believe that there was a big bang and we evolved through natural selection"

I would like to think that everyone understands that there are mountains of evidence that support Big Bang and evolution of species through natural selection. Even the Pope said that Big Bang has happened and evolution is real.

People with religious faith who also have a brain can use it to work out that Big Bang does not rule out the possibility of a "creator God". It actually might well be how their God created our universe in a flash of light.

Evolution does mean that humans weren't "created" as we are now but developed into this shape over millions of years, but again, the smart ones argue that it was God who steered evolution towards the humans we are now.

Mohammad is not a "paedophile" since he did not lay a finger on his 'wife' until she had her period and "became a woman" as was the practice at that time, and not only among Arabs. You might like to look into what life expectancy and age at marriage was around the world around the year 600.

Ephebophile then. Whatever, girls get their periods as early as 9 (in some cases earlier, like the 5 year old who ended up pregnant), and it is just not ethical to subject a girl of that age to PiV.

Mary was married off when she got her first period, but they did marry her to a widower, reasoning that he would keep his hands off her for a while longer than a young man would. (They also married her off because they had to, not because someone "fell in love" with her)

I have to say, with regard to scripture, the Christian faith does fare better. (Although that part about Mary is not canon)

However, as this clearly doesn't keep Christian men from oppressing women, I don't view this as a reason to promote Christianity over Islam.

Buffy, yes, I think believing in God is not a belief system.

But no to the tree diagram, because I don't think theism is a useful splitting point for understanding belief systems.

"if you actually look at Jesus and what he did. He was shocking because he sat with women (who were less than property) visited them in their homes and involved them in the church as much as the men"

Yeah well, if you really looked what Mohammad did for women, you would probably be similarly shocked. He ruled that women could own property, earn and keep their own money, divorce their husbands for a variety of reasons including what amounts to "I feel like it", and would keep their small children upon divorce. Woman had to be given money at the beginning of the marriage which she would keep in the case of divorce. That was in the year 600 or so.

Compare this to the status of women 1200 years later in the UK: Whatever women had passed to the husband when they married. Women couldn't have money of their own, because whatever they earned legally belonged to their husbands. Even if husband kicked them out, women could not get a divorce and had no right to see their children.

Yes, the modern world slowly caught up and passed the rights & status Mohammad gave women in the 7th Century, but there is no doubt that the change he brought to the rights and status of women back then was revolutionary and was significantly more advanced that anything Christian women saw for another 12 centuries.

Wicked - If you didn't get my post, try reading it again.

If you need help, ask a question.

"Ephebophile then. "

It is not a question of -phile but of what was normal at the time.

It wasn't just Mohammad and it certainly wasn't just Arabs who considered girls to have become old enough to marry upon their first period. In medieval European society, it was normal to marry children when they reach puberty. In 16th Century England, it was a felony to have sex with a girl under the age of 10. That is 1000 YEARS after Mohammad.

I'm not saying it's great to marry off or have sex with 10 year old girls. What I am saying is that Mohammad in the year 600 or so was not singularly egregious in this respect. Marrying at or shortly after puberty was a perfectly normal practice at the time and for many centuries thereafter.

Cote, he still married a nine year old, did he not?

Are we having a problem with English comprehension? Or did you just x-post with my last one?

The things op pointed out as problematic to feminists and the west, are the same in many other religions,funny how theyre not focused on. I suppose its expected since 9/11 and subsequent attacks.

What rights did women have in the Arabian peninsula prior to Islam or slaves for that matter zero. Fine bringing up the negatives but you cannot be bothered to highlight any positives due to your blinkers.

Thank you I feel so welcome on this forum, this isn't the first muslim.islam bashing thread on mumsnet.

Jesus didn't do any of the expected practices....but you are saying we should overlook the so called prophet Mohammed, when he treated girls and women like chattel?

Jesus was worth a MILLION of that Mohammed. Jesus led a faultless life...time and again when people run down Christianity they have to resort to the OT because NOTHING Jesus said can ever be pointed to as wrong.

You think about that.

What did Jesus ever do or say that people dislike or feel was wrong. Come on?

Wicked - You don't sound terribly objective about all this

Not wrong per se, but from where I'm sitting, Jesus's one achievement in life seems to have been that he managed to get himself killed in a particularly gruesome way.

Who knows what he really said? Long after he died, some other men managed his legacy and created a huge myth around his name.

cote I can't speak about Mohammed as I know very little about the prophet or Islam. I was talking about Jesus. Many people assume that the misogynistic practices of Christianity originated with him (and Christianity has some awful practices and terrible acts committed in gods name). That's not true. Early Christianity was egalitarian and women preached and proselyted as much as men. It wasn't until Constantine converted to Christianity and the Roman empire with it, that it emulated contemporary roman society.

Sorry for the essay, I am interested in the history of early Christianity. Especially as it pertains to the role of women.

vestalvirgin could you answer my question? What are the horrible Mormon men doing to me?

wicked bashing another faith I see. I wont stoop to your level though cant because Jesus (pbuh) is a Prophet to us, I guess you never read up about respect as a Christian, forgot that huh?

I could list you many things Jesus(pbuh) did that modern society in the west would call barbaric today, but no point debating here people have already made up their minds.

What did Jesus ever do or say that people dislike or feel was wrong. Come on?

Nothing wrong insofar as how we should treat each other and behave towards each other. I don't believe he was the son of god, if one could remove that aspect there is little a non - believer could object to.

Roman society was nowhere as bad for women as Medieval Europe, though. And that society was built by the Church.

Regardless of what Jesus tried to do in his brief lifetime, it all got rather terrible (and not just for women) once power was concentrated in the hands of the Church. It took many centuries and a bloody Enlightenment to get to the point where religious dogma does not get to dominate and control people's lives anymore.

Islam started 600 years after Christianity and is unsurprisingly going through its "dark ages" at the moment, just like Christianity did with witch hunts in the 15th Century and Inquisition's long reign of terror from 12th Century onwards. It will probably take another bloody period of Enlightenment for Islam to modernise, sadly.

Jesus and Muhammad were completely different personalities for the time and people they lived in. Muslims reverence both of them for different reasons. on women's issues Muhammad spoke out against forced marriage, female infanticide, legislated that women must inherit from their fathers/brothers/husbands, that women can divorce, own their property that is separate even after marriage Muhammad specified that, that modern muslim women use birth control without the conflict that catholic women face is because of the statements of Muhammad, abortion in certain situations and within certain time frames is also a recourse for muslim women because of hadith of Muhammad. He was against wife beating and abuse and gave women recourse to leave their hhusbands in such cases or even general unhappiness with their husbands. We contrast that with how communities operate now on the subject of divorce for women. Out of respect and maturity we muslims do not compare Jesus to Muhammad and say 'what did he do huh huh?'. They had completely different societies and destinies to follow. muslim feminists look at the quran and hadith and generally see Muhammad pbuh as someone who tried to do so much to ease the plight of women and girls in his time of 6th century arabia and many centuries afterwards.

Regardless of what Jesus tried to do in his brief lifetime, it all got rather terrible (and not just for women) once power was concentrated in the hands of the Church. It took many centuries and a bloody Enlightenment to get to the point where religious dogma does not get to dominate and control people's lives anymore

I am very glad the European Enlightenment happened.