Can we have a general Trans thread?

[Brugmansia]

Sorry for another trans thread and I feel this is a bit of an imposition given I don't post really.

Anyway reading FWR over the past few months has re-radicalised me. I've been reading lots here and wider.

Anyway just now been watching TV and there's been some stuff that's given me the rage but didn't seem to fit in existing threads or it's own thread.

Anyway thing that gave me the rage.
On BBC3 program on transgemder teen's the doctor just said "creating a vagina". Are doctors redefining vagina as pocket rather than a passage? Makes me want to screem.

Also Sarah Ditum being no platformed.

Plon just be aware that that groups isn't private, so everyone on your friends list can see it. Many of us have found that discussing gender from a critical perspective leads to instant labelling as a TERF and huge arguments.

Yes, sorry, I should have said - it's an open group. I do participate there but I'm pretty careful how I word things I suppose. Which I guess I am anyway.

Vestal I was one of those idealistic pro trans feminists until the Tara case made me question my views. In my case - and I suspect for a lot of other lib fems - the sympathy and desire to protect and promote trans issues can be traced to buying in to the popular 'trans narrative' which is what is fed to the public at large.

This narrative as I understood it was this:
All trans women experience crippling, life threatening body dismorphia from early childhood.
All - or at least a majority - of trans women have genital surgery to rid themselves of their penises.
Once on hormones, Trans women are rendered physically weaker than normal men, and have reduced sex drives and capacity for violence.
Trans women's brains are fundamentally different to those of normal men.
Transgenderism has nothing to do with fetishism or pornography.
Trans women are, like, the most oppressed class ever, and are literally being murdered in their thousands by TERFS every day!!!

...Of course, once I actually decided to research for myself rather than just blindly swallowing whatever crap tumblr was telling me, I quickly realised that none of the 'facts' that I knew were correct. But when I speak to other lib feminist friends, they all parrot the same points that I used to, so I think the main problem is that the trans activists have been very skilful in controlling the discussion around trans issues and making it more sanitised and palatable for the general public. Critically, most lib fems that I speak to seem to be under the impression that a trans woman has to have full genital surgery before they can be legally considered a woman. They are genuinely shocked when they realise that this isn't the case.

I was one of those people that signed the Tara petition. I believed the story peddled by Tara's mother and the press, and I am utterly horrified by the way that the truth was manipulated by the media. When we don't have the full facts, we can't make informed choices, and the unfortunate fact is that the public is not being given access to any information or opinions that don't fit the trans narrative. It's incredibly scary.

most lib fems that I speak to seem to be under the impression that a trans woman has to have full genital surgery before they can be legally considered a woman. They are genuinely shocked when they realise that this isn't the case.

Maybe those will see reason once they are properly informed. However ...
I was told by a libfem that she was shocked that I would make surgery a requirement for transwomen who wanted to share rooms with women who had been traumatized by male violence.

Apparently their PTSD is transphobic if it is triggered by male bodies ladypeens.

Edeline That's interesting, a similar thing happened to me a while back. I think a lot of women are beginning to question the inclusion of trans women as women, as more of us are waking up to what this all means. The more we question it, the more we refuse to accept it, the nastier and more aggressively it's insisted upon. Which shouldn't be a surprise really as it has always been so.

Yes I also used to believe that if they identified as women they would have full surgery. Then I learned about trans lesbians with "lady penises"...

Trans women are, like, the most oppressed class ever, and are literally being murdered in their thousands by TERFS every day!!!

Was that something you and others actually believed - that radical feminists actually were violent and murdered trans people?

Just seen this. Trans fairy tale - teaching kids how to be 'more fully themselves'....
www.mtv.com/news/2683408/royal-heart-kids-book-transgender-prince-becomes-princess/?xrs=_s.fb_up

Apparently, not accepting a transwoman as a woman is terrorism. Even using their chosen names and pronouns isn't enough. We have to believe it as well.That was the cause for the hatred against Germaine Greer, even though she said she was polite and respected their identity she didn't see them as women.
This reminds me of a few years ago when Nadia won Big brother on channel 4. Everyone had to pretend they hadn't noticed she was transgender (a plot device, presumably), even though it was immediately obvious. (no offence to Nadia, she just wasn't convincing).

Snowshimmer

I'm not sure that I ever really believed it in a literal sense, but I sure as hell didn't question it. I mean, who was I to question a trans woman on trans issues? Why would they lie, right...?

When I saw trans activists on twitter and tumblr accusing Greer and other feminists of genocide against trans people, I accepted it in that I thought that TERFS were trans phobic, and it was trans phobia that led to trans women getting killed, ergo TERF's = murdering trans.

Yeah, I am painfully aware of how stupid that is now.

edeline no need for - I think most of us have been trans allies and bought into the orthodoxy you so eloquently set out - I know I did.

It was only when Mary Beard and Peter Tatchell were viciously attacked on Twitter for signing the letter objecting to no platforming (was it of Julie bindel?) that I looked into what was going on and hit "peak trans" pretty bloody quickly!

I was very confused when Bruce Jenner transitioned to Caitlyn, because I couldn't understand why she still wanted to date women. I thought MTF were homosexual and wanted to date men.
Then I found out that we are supposed to turn the clock back as well. Because Caitlyn said she always felt like a woman we are supposed to pretend that Bruce Jenner never existed , and Caitlyn won the decathelon at the Olympic games.
Yeah, right.

and Caitlyn won the decathelon at the Olympic games.

The one were actual women aren't even allowed to participate?
It is so ridiculous.

It is ridiculous, isn't it vestal. Next they'll be telling us a penis can be feminine. Oh, wait ...

We're supposed to pretend Bruce Jenner never existed, until Caitlyn Jenner wants to renew membership of the golf club without accepting the lower status of female members. So she signed the forms as Bruce, publicly, on her show.

Vestal as a childfree by choice woman who was refused sterilisation throughut my twenties (im now 42) the comparison you have made is very interesting.

It is ridiculous, isn't it vestal. Next they'll be telling us a penis can be feminine. Oh, wait ...

Ah, well, put a pink bow on it and pierce it to add sparkly jewelry and it might be "feminine".
It will, however, never be female.

@Helena: You mean what with the sterilized transmen? Yeah, interesting, isn't it?

*Trans women are, like, the most oppressed class ever, and are literally being murdered in their thousands by TERFS every day!!!

Was that something you and others actually believed - that radical feminists actually were violent and murdered trans people?*

That is actually not far from what many trans activists say. TERFS don't accept trans women as women, vocalising this contributes to anti-trans rhetoric, which in turns contributes to violence against trans women. Ergo, saying that trans women aren't women is akin to violence against trans.

Yet the violence against trans women is almost universally committed by men. So why don't they attempt to change this rather than scream TERF at any woman who dares to be gender critical?

Yes don't be embarassed Edeline - I'm just curious what trans activists allies learn, and think, about "terfs". It is used as a slur which is frequently used and could be any person/woman, not just radical feminists, w/ differing opinions or questions.

I'm afraid the opinion I have formed of trans allies is that they are a bit hard of thinking

Their counter argument to any and all the points that gender critical feminists raise always consists of; 'you are vile' and 'have you ever met a TG person?'

There a real 'im alright jack' air about them and I always imagine them as young middle class women, in the throes of the 'I don't need feminism, men love me' phase

I too think the link of T with LGB had a lot to do with things.

Onemore, have you signed the 'drop the t' petition? I'll grab a link now for anyone who hasn't....

www.change.org/p/human-rights-campaign-glaad-lambda-legal-the-advocate-out-magazine-huffpost-gay-voices-drop-the-t?recruiter=1559421&utm_source=share_for_starters&utm_medium=copyLink