Can we have a general Trans thread?

[Brugmansia]

Sorry for another trans thread and I feel this is a bit of an imposition given I don't post really.

Anyway reading FWR over the past few months has re-radicalised me. I've been reading lots here and wider.

Anyway just now been watching TV and there's been some stuff that's given me the rage but didn't seem to fit in existing threads or it's own thread.

Anyway thing that gave me the rage.
On BBC3 program on transgemder teen's the doctor just said "creating a vagina". Are doctors redefining vagina as pocket rather than a passage? Makes me want to screem.

Also Sarah Ditum being no platformed.

I know. I have a friend who I consider very feminist, and recently a mutual friend of ours posted that he was sick to death of hearing about Caitlyn Jenner. And she pompously posted some earnest bollox roundly criticising him "why would you be tired of hearing about a trans woman's journey". And she usually is the last person to use such twee phrases and normally she mercilessly mocks other people who do so. Honestly, it feels like some sort of collective mania.

Beyond it had reached the point where I barely recognised my old friend anyway, as she'd gone deep into this cultist behaviour. I'd kind of recognised that I'd lost her (the old her) by that point anyway. I think the thing I was most upset about what that she was no longer able to listen to anything that didn't reinforce her existing views. (And the people she counted as her new, true social justice role model friends were, quite frankly, dim. Really, really dim. So dim that any meaningful discussion was impossible, as: dim.)

element I had exactly the same reaction when I suggested on FB that the rights of female prisoners should be taken in to consideration in this review (have a thread on it, posting political opinions on FB is a whole other topic!).
So what are we going to do? I will write to my MP and ask that at least one woman is on the review board and the rights if women to be segregated by sex are considered. Perhaps we could write up a template style letter so we're all united in this? What else can we do to bring attention to the issue?

Perhaps we could write up a template style letter so we're all united in this
I think this is a great idea. I struggle with wording so a template would be really useful.

Perhaps we should have another thread just for that, to cover:

Issues raised by the Ministry of Justice Review of care and management of Transgender offenders

Who to contact, types of letters.

So, I think it would be really good to immediately raise a demand early on that Female Prisoners be explicitly mentioned as an interest group (stakeholder) in this discussion. (The terms of referance state that they will consult with Transgender Community, and that they will provide guidance for Prisons staff etc..., but nowhere are women mentioned.... even though the main issue raised by in political lobbying has been the housing of trans prisoners in the women's estate). I don't know how one goes about that, but I think we need to write (individually or collectively, not sure) to the Ministry of Justice about how they've framed the terms of reference.

This is a pdf of the terms of reference for anyone who needs it.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/483208/review-transgender-prison-tor.pdf

i do think the govt. are being a bit sneaky about this, because the current NOMS instructions 'PSI 07/2011' 'Care and Management of Transsexual Prisoners' was due for review in March 2015 and there's no update (though there is a version for Detainees (i.e. foreign nationals detained under immigration rules rather for a crime) which is still current (up for review in 2017)

What it looks like for me is that they may be doing their normal review of PSI 07/2011 which had to happen as overdue anyway, but timing the announcement to make it look like they are responding to topical events. Obviously, the political context makes it possible that there will be a considerable broadening of definitions and increase in the numbers of transgender prisoners who could access the women's estate.

Perhaps we should have another thread just for that, to cover

Another good idea. I agree it needs to be raised sooner rather than later

What it looks like for me is that they may be doing their normal review of PSI 07/2011 which had to happen as overdue anyway, but timing the announcement to make it look like they are responding to topical events

Are you suggesting politicians may be attempting to seem caring and accepting whilst not revealing the whole story? I'm shocked and appalled!

Good idea to keep it together on a separate thread :)

Igotapea, my youngest says to me "when i grow up, i will be a lady and have a baby in my belly" and i answer with "no you wont, you will grow up to be a man and men cant have babies in their bellies". Seems i'm a cruel mother...

Have started another thread about emailing Caroline Dineage about the terms of reference (in feminist activism)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_activism/2525998-Write-to-Caroline-Dineage-Justice-Minister-about-MoJ-Review?watched=1

Seems i'm a cruel mother...

Read him some texts about the possible complications in pregnancy and childbirth, and he might be grateful that he can find a "lady" who will endure all that pain and discomfort for him.

He should be very grateful.

I am curious/interested as to what understanding a toddler can have about sex and gender and be able to articulate to convince parents that they were born the wrong sex.

In most articles I've read about trans kids it seems to involve things like boys being interested in makeup and dolls, rather than trucks and running about going "RAWRRR".

That's what I think when I've watched trans children programmes or read stories
It seems to be very much based on a parents view of what each gender should be doing/playing with. I find it very disturbing
Meanwhile young women are too busy being right on to realise the wider impact on women
They are happy with a bit of good old fashioned ageism though

It's almost like these parents can't deal with the possibility of a gay son and would rather have a daughter. I find it a bit sinister tbh.

Well that would tie in with Iran's option of "you can't be gay, why don't you change gender", and I believe there's a similar ethos behind the high numbers of transsexuals in Brazil.

we're bringing our son up as a girl

I caught the interview on +1. Linked it for anyone interested.
The dad says to Holly something like, "imagine if people are giving you Barbies and you want a football" and I'm not sure if he said it as a way to explain that because Dannje wants dolls, then she's a girl, or if it was a criticism if what's perceived as girls and boys toys.

Thanks for the link.

They come across as loving parents wanting to do the best for their child. I do think Mum didn't give Danni a chance to live as a boy though as first advised, body language gives her away, lots of head shaking.

Now what was interesting is Caitlyn Jenner's Mum Mom stated she had no idea about Cait. This family are describing a toddler being very vocal about their ideas and displaying behaviour such as fucking the penis away and flicking T towels on the head etc.

Tucking

You know, I'm mildly disappointed not to have found this was a thread about someone called 'General Trans'. You know, with a lovely uniform and everything: gold braiding, peaked cap.. that sort of thing.

Sorry, full of the cold- I'll get my coat.

I have a friend with twins. One of whom loves fairies, mermaids and unicorns. The other likes Batman and hitting things with sticks. They are both male and she is pretty convinced the former will probably grow up to form intimate relationships with other men.

This is where gender critical feminism is a gift. Our kids are getting the message; be who you want, do what you want, we love you the way you are. Is that really so terrible? He doesn't need to be a box.

I have avoided commenting on these threads for many reasons. I have seen threads on MN in the last few months about trans issues which have made me feel deeply uncomfortable (due to discrimination/abuse IMO).

But I think I should perhaps not solely react to them (these issues seem to provoke opinions where maybe the posters are speaking from strong emotions and that isn't always a measured response!).

I've worked in male prisons and IMO there should be dedicated wings for trans women pre - genital surgery . Post genital surgery and change of name - the individual should go to a female prison.

You wouldn't need a trans wing in every prison but just a few would suffice - it's a very small population.

Housing in 'vulnerable' units isn't good enough as those units are often populated by sex offenders who are predatory and trans women are at increased risk.

I have no issue with restricting access to 'female spaces' for biological women if needs be. As a straight woman with trans women friends (pre and post genital surgery) I will happily share toilets or changing rooms with trans women friends but cannot and will not expect other women to. There has to be a line drawn and although complex, it has to occur.

But what I don't understand is the disregarding and often aggressiveness shown on threads on MN and in the community against trans women.

This OP amongst others (and this isn't an attack on this OP or any others) shows that even if an individual undergoes extensive surgery, it won't be enough to have them considered by some people as being the gender they consider themselves to be.

Biological sex, DNA can not be altered. But if someone who feels their biological sex is different to the gender they believe they are and has invasive surgery, why dismiss that?.

A vagina is more than just a 'pocket' but breasts are more than lumps of tissue and glands. I have a female friend with cosmetic implants and a friend with reconstructed breasts after a double mastectomy. Not what nature gave and fake but part of them.

What I don't understand the most, and really am not being provocative or goady, I am genuinely trying to understand - this thread is on the feminism board on MN so must be about trans issues affecting women? And I think it is more than 'female spaces'.

And women may suffer in a patriarchy (and we often do). Expectations on appearance, behaviour, conduct sexually and outside of that. 'Wife work'. Pay gaps, discrimination. Sexual and physical violence. In non 'white British' communities but often UK citizens (and beyond) forced marriage, FGM etc.

But there seems to be what I can't describe as other than a 'possessiveness' of being a biological woman. That even though some biological women may think they are disadvantaged, discriminated against and often victims of the patriarchy, they don't want an individual born a man to identify as a woman.

That's what I don't understand.

Laughingatweather, what does "being a woman" mean if you don't include biology/DNA/physical characteristics? I'm a woman because of my biology. That's the only reason I'm a woman. It's got nothing to do with what I feel I am, how I think, how I behave or how I dress.

The only thing that makes me a woman is my biology, i have no inate "womanley" feelings, no born "woman's touch".

In fact in every way people try to define what a woman is by personality I come out a man, and to put it bluntly I refuse to use mens public toilets.

And unless you can define yourself how can you discuss issues that affect your group, If the name is now meaningless, all of a sudden their isn't a sex pay gap, there are loads of women on boards (what do you mean these women were men until they were 50).

Transitioning isn't the solution to your sex being treated like crap, changing how people treat your sex is the solution. (men want to wear dresses, wear makeup have emotons, must be trans)

'Possessiveness' over womanhood? Well, yes. Cultural appropriation tends to have that effect. I think a lot of the women on this thread feel that our womanhood is rather more than a costume that one can put on. We also locate the root of our oppression in biology; it's somewhat galling to be presented with members of the oppressor class attempting to redefine us in order to include themselves among us. As members of the group labelled 'woman' and shat all over from a great height because of it, we feel quite strongly about being able to define ourselves, rather than simply being whatever our oppressors define us as today.