proposed legislation in scotland - licensed saunas and legalised prostitution

[weeonion]

A consultation is currently happening in Scotland to make charges to the laws around prostitution, brothel keeping and pimping. No matter what you think - it would be good to have your voice, experiences and opinions heard in this. They have just extended the deadline to the 8th December so if time has been an issue for you - you now have another week!

Responses prepared electronically should be sent by e-mail to:
[email protected]
Responses prepared in hard copy should be sent by post to:
Jean Urquhart MSP
Room M3.20
Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh
EH99 1SP
You may also contact Jean Urquart’s office by telephone on (0131) 348 5052

[emmawinkI3]

Or we could always put men, boys and male babies into POW-like camps so they can't harm women at all?

[grimbletart]

emma seems to have a problem understanding that the risk to prostitutes comes from men. Perhaps she thinks it comes from penguins?

[Ubik1]

But shouldn't we place more weight on the opinions of those who actually have experience selling sex since they will know best about how the law will affect them?

No

You consult, weigh the evidence and look st what is best for our society.

I don't think prostitutes should be criminalised. The people who purchase services should

[TheXxed]

Yes!!! Put all men in internment camps, except my toddler DS, he is an adorable gorgeous Pudge of wonderfulness.

[weeonion]

Hirples -c'mon now. No campaign? Really? I think it is quite obvious that there is a well planned out approach.

Emmawinkl -you ask whatvis stopping women in prostitution having blogs and twitter - nothing in theory apart from time, resources, skills and intent. Most of the women in Edinburgh saunas aren't setting twitter alight.

Now - back to those links around arrests in NI etc. Have you been able to find them?

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

Laws are stupid. Humans have been murdering each other since the stone age, so why is murder illegal? Theft has been going on just as long. Just legalize all bad behaviour. Because of penguins also, I bet they do some suspicous shit

[HirplesWithHaggis]

I would agree there is a well planned out approach. I'd actually say there are two, one from the pro sexwork side, one from the antis. The arguments are well rehearsed, it's not the first time this this topic has been looked at, and no-one ever seems to change their mind anyway.

There's no Bill to campaign for/against as yet, and there might never be.

[weeonion]

Hirples - surely women's orgs campaigned long and hard for the recognition of violence and abuse in relationships? Whilst it still happens, there has been attitudinal change and no longer do we frame it as just an interpersonal issue but a wider societal one. Funny that those same orgs would oppose the majority of jeans proposals, apart from decriminalising those who selll.

[weeonion]

Emnawinkl - I cant see where on this thread it was said that jean had only consulted with pimps or traffickers. Can you link please?

I agree that those who have experience of selling sex should be listened to in this debate. Isn't then ironic that no survivor organisations should have been consulted by jean. Again I wonder why she didn't?

[HirplesWithHaggis]

I agree that women's orgs have changed official attitudes towards vawg, but the crucial point is that this doesn't seem to have stopped, or even reduced it very much. The two dead women a week stat was quoted by WA over 20 years ago and it's still quoted now, for example.

We now recognise financial, psychological and emotional abuse as abuse, but that doesn't reduce the frequency either. Educating women to recognise when it's happening, and to LTB, is good, and something at which MN excel. Educating our young (of both/all sexes/genders/whatevers) on the topic seems rather harder, especially in these days of readily available and totally unrealistic porn. I don't know what the answer to that is.

I do realise that most of those orgs would oppose Jean's proposals, but that's because their framing is that all prostitution is vaw. That doesn't mean they're "right".

Framing from the other side is that no, it's not. I think it's worth listening to the voices of those who are actually involved in sexwork, and my focus is on what is safest for the (mainly) women who work as prostitutes. I believe that Jean's proposals do that.

There is no middle ground that I can see.

[VestalVirgin]

@weeonion: It is hard to find ex-prostitutes willing to answer questions. There's one who wrote this book called "Paid For", but she is one of the only ones who go public. Most women just don't want anyone to know about it, and want to leave that time in their life behind them - quite understandably.

Andrea Dworkin has some experience ... her opinion on the matter was obviously not considered.

[weeonion]

Vestal - Rachel Moran wrote that book. She gets completely hounded online and receives alot of abuse / vitriol - including from some very vocal Scottish sex workers.

I agree that most survivors just want to put their heads down and get on with life. I saw 2 scottish women speak out about their experiences and views on a FB page only to be labelled "whorephobic". It was awful to read. They disappeared from that group and never came back to it.

[weeonion]

Hirples - I agree that there seems to be little middle ground. I am really uncomfortable with the idea that if you dont agree completely with these proposals, then you don't care about women's safety.

I actually think the common factor is the concern for women's safety.

This Bill might not go anywhere at this stage but I think the Greens will take it up. Dependant on the election results of course.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

I'm being pedantic, but this isn't a Bill. It's a consultation. Depending on how that goes, Jean may (or may not) take things further and propose legislation, and then we can all rehearse our arguments again.

In what way does the Swedish model improve the safety of women? I get the "reduce demand = reduce violence" argument, but as already discussed upthread, making women work alone, and making streetwork more dangerous by reducing the time women have to assess punters, doesn't do that.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

Hmm, googling shows me several sites that claim the only prostitute murdered since the Swedish model was implemented was Petite Jasmine, and she wasn't killed in the course of her work. However, I can't find any actual official stats.

If it has reduced the murder rate to zero, that is a good thing, of course.

[weeonion]

You're right Hirple- it isn't a Bill.

Jean won't be doing anything with it - she's announced she is retiring. As I said unthread - it looks like the Greens are most likely to take it on.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Or we could always put men, boys and male babies into POW-like camps so they can't harm women at all?

That is a ridiculous suggestion. Goodness knows I see a lot on this forum which I don't agree with but to try to suggest that anyone who opposes prostitution is saying that is just nonsense.

What the pro-punter lobby don't seem to understand it's not just radical feminists who oppose the normalisation of prostitution. My husband and son for example agree with my views on this.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

It is a proposal for a Bill. There was a previous consultation by Labour MSP Rhoda Grant in 2012 to introduce legislation following the Swedish model which the SNP blocked.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

www.scot-pep.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf/scot-pep_response_to_rhoda_grant_consultation.pdf

Scot-PEP's response to Rhoda Grant's proposal. Not quite #SNPbad.

[chiohoph]

How can a party "block" a bill??

Rhoda Grant's bill did not go anywhere because it failed to get cross-party support.

[chiohoph]

"If it has reduced the murder rate to zero, that is a good thing, of course."

Is it worth pointing out Sweden has a very small population spread out over a large area? So I'm not surprised if it has a lower murder rate than a country like England that has large densely populated cities.

And I do wonder if it wasn't for the swedish model if Petite Jasmine may still be alive today. She did go to the police about her abusive bf, but they were more interested in was what she did for a living. And they also took her children off her and give them to him. Because she was a prostitute.

[chiohoph]

Rachel Moran, oh you mean the liar.

maggiemcneill.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/gaye-dalton-affidavit.pdf

Interesting how a sex worker, Gaye Dalton, has worked on the same street RM claims to have worked on for 2 years and has not ever seen anyone matching her description.

She isn't the first person to have lied about working in the sex industry. "Patricia Perquin" was another who falsely claimed to have worked in Amsterdan's RLD and spewed out a whole load of horrific but fictional tales.

[chiohoph]

And Gaye Dalton btw really is a sex worker. Unlike RM, there are plenty people able to vouch for Gaye.