proposed legislation in scotland - licensed saunas and legalised prostitution

[weeonion]

A consultation is currently happening in Scotland to make charges to the laws around prostitution, brothel keeping and pimping. No matter what you think - it would be good to have your voice, experiences and opinions heard in this. They have just extended the deadline to the 8th December so if time has been an issue for you - you now have another week!

Responses prepared electronically should be sent by e-mail to:
[email protected]
Responses prepared in hard copy should be sent by post to:
Jean Urquhart MSP
Room M3.20
Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh
EH99 1SP
You may also contact Jean Urquart’s office by telephone on (0131) 348 5052

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

The idea that was are legalising using women as wank socks makes me feel ill. What a fucking message.

My response to the consultation, whilst considerably tempered for language, basically said that.

If anyone on here in the rest of the UK thinks this is only relevant to Scotland, please think again. Do you want mobile brothels being set up in Gretna Green with women being driven over the border?

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Oh and all of this ignores the fact the vast majority of women are not prostitutes and the vast majority of men aren't punters.

In the 4 Scottish cities far more people live in tenement flats than rest of UK and also live in the city centres. This is not just young, single people but all ages and families with children.

None of the pro brothel lobby seem to give a damn that these proposals would force ordinary women, men and children to live on the same stair as a brothel.

[emmawinkI3]

I couldn't log in so I signed up again btw don't know why it kept saying incorrect password.

"Emmawinkl - surely women in prostitution currently have the right to say no to a punter, have the right to refuse sex and have the right to refuse a booking? If not, who is denying them those rights?"

Of course they have those rights.

And prohibitionists (people advocating either the swedish model or full criminalisation) IMO are denying them the right to decide for themselves.

If you say "all prostitution is rape" then you are denying individual women the right to decide for themselves. And what worries me is that if society does adopt the attitude of "all prostitution is rape" then prostitutes who really have been raped may not be taken as seriously.

[emmawinkI3]

"If you feel so strongly about homeless Swedish prostitutes, perhaps you could finance a housing charity that gave these women a rent-free home and less financial pressure that could enable them to exit prostitution"

I wasn't the one who lobbied for the Swedish model, which includes a clause about it being illegal to allow rented accommodation to be used for selling sex.

I believe it was mostly feminists who lobbied for the law in Sweden. And what are they doing about the negative consequences they have created for vulnerable women selling sex in Sweden?

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I don't think all prostitution is rape. That is not the basis for my objection to it.

I think it is debasing and degrading and incompatible with human dignity. It is not just another job.

I watched the Channel 4 (?) documentary on legal brothels in Germany. It was one of the most awful things I've seen. I would be ashamed if Scotland allowed that.

[emmawinkI3]

" So, they would not suffer at all if it were declared tomorrow that all johns will be punished? "

Yes sex workers would suffer if buying sex was made illegal (more than the buyers would IMO), see my earlier posts.

"Women everywhere would rejoice that their bodies are no longer considered a commodity that's for sale, and some few prostitutes who have lots of money on their bank accounts would have to find a new job? "

In your fantasy world, sure. And unicorns will jump over rainbows.

"The idea that was are legalising using women as wank socks makes me feel ill. What a fucking message.
My response to the consultation, whilst considerably tempered for language, basically said that."

IMO I don't think swearing and using emotive language will do much for your side. I remember Melissa Farley used language like this in court regarding a proposed prostitution law and the judge actually said he was assigning less weight to her arguments because of it.

And personally if I came across horrible shit like this while reading a reply I would stop reading.

And in case you've forgotten, the idea about legalising prostitution further is in the interests of safety of sexworkers.

[emmawinkI3]

"I think it is debasing and degrading and incompatible with human dignity. It is not just another job."

You sound like you are just out of a Women Studies course.

PC mumbo-jumbo aside which model do you think is safest for people selling sex. Or do you think safety isn't the top priority?

[museumum]

I'm not sure what I think but it's important to note that the reason this has come up is because in Scotland when we had multiple police forces Edinburgh always turned a blind eye to brothels, it was the official policy not to raid them unless there was trouble or drugs etc. Glasgow didn't have this policy and doesn't have "saunas" in the same way.
Now there's just one single police force they need to decide what to do, obviously they've been going for the "shut them down as they're illegal" angle up to now.
Many women's organisations in Edinburgh will say it was better / safer when it was allowed.

So.... If you are repelled by the idea of legal sex work full stop then I understand that.
But if you're looking for pragmatic solutions to protect women then personally rather than looking to NZ or to Sweden I'd be looking at what the Edinburgh organisations are saying. They've worked in both situations in our country and culture so I'd be listening to what they say.

[TheXxed]

emmawinkl i think what I find most objectionable about the NZ and German model is that it surrenders to patriarchy, it works on the premise that women are going to be exploited anyway so might as well make it easier. Women do not want to prostitute themselves but are forced to out of poor circumstances, I want to women not be forced to prostitute themselves.

I want to smash patriarchy, white supremacy and poverty.

[emmawinkI3]

As soon as Scotland's police forces merged into one all the Edinburgh saunas received surprise raids. Sexworkers were paraded outside in their underwear and had money and phones confiscated.

Hooray for prohibition! (sarcasm)

[emmawinkI3]

@TheXxed, I don't give a shit about the PC-mumbo-jumbo you picked up on a Woman's Studies course. The top priority should be safety.

[weeonion]

Emmawinkl- I haven't heard many people saying those who sell or exchange should be criminalised. those who choose to - will still be able to.

I am struggling to see how policy should be dominated by the vocal few business woman who have press and policy officers guiding them. Lets face it - what they are proposing is pretty self serving and I their own interests.
I honestly don't think removing pimping laws will make it easier for the vast majority.

Who makes it unsafe emmawinkl? It is the punters. New Zealand hasn't dealt with their violence. Yep , women say it is easier to report which is great but the violence is still there.

I do think alot more voices are allowed I this debate than just sex workers. Services, survivors, support workers have an important role. Jean spoke to none of them.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

You sound like you are just out of a Women Studies course

You must be new in these parts otherwise you'd know I'm the least likely poster to go within a country mile of a women's studies course.

The top priority is reforming society to think buying a body to masturbate in to is as unacceptable as owning slave or sending children down coal mines.

[weeonion]

Useumum - services in Edinburgh say conditions lwats were appalling in saunas with little control over choices. Workers dealt with horrific cases and continue to do so.
The wonderfully pragmatic approach in Edinburgh meant there was no editing support or services when needed, something services working v hard to put in place.
Emmawinkl - I agree operation windemere was awful. Things happened that really shouldn't have. I do think it is notable though that services saw a huge increase in numbers of women who wanted out and needed support to do so.

[emmawinkI3]

"I honestly don't think removing pimping laws will make it easier for the vast majority."

Pimping is already illegal in Scotland and JQ's has no plan to change that, she wants sexworkers to be able to work together without committing a crime. Have you read the consultation document?

"Who makes it unsafe emmawinkl?"

People who lobby for unsafe laws.

"I do think alot more voices are allowed I this debate than just sex workers. Services, survivors, support workers have an important role. Jean spoke to none of them."

Jean spoke to no surviving sex workers? What??

[emmawinkI3]

"The top priority is reforming society to think buying a body to masturbate in to is as unacceptable as owning slave or sending children down coal mines."

"Buying a body"?

Why do you say "body" to refer to a living person? When people talk about "bodies" they generally mean the bodies of the deceased.

There's something about the language prohibition-advocaters use that just creeps me out.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

it works on the premise that women are going to be exploited anyway so might as well make it easier

Yes exactly that. What is so hard to understand ? And of course there will be some young men too.

I suppose there were also slave owners who might not have physically mistreated their slaves. Maybe they could have been allowed to keep them?

And I see none of the pro punter lobby are willing to address my point about why other people should have to live next door to a brothel.

[emmawinkI3]

If I were to hire a plumber, would I be "buying his hands"?

If I were to hire an accountant, would I be "buying his brain"?

If I hired a massage therapist, would I be "buying his/her hands"?

Or would I just be paying for whatever service they are offering?

Do you see how silly your terminology is?

[emmawinkI3]

"my point about why other people should have to live next door to a brothel."

So you believe the right not to live next door to a brothel is more important than the safety of the people working there? And you think because there is more than 1 sexworker working there they should be arrested and charged?

[emmawinkI3]

And I don't accept the analogy some of you are using that "prostitution = slavery"

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Emma have you seen the punters' sites where they talk about and rate women?

And yes I don't think any one should have to live next door to a brothel. Punters s

[weeonion]

Emmawinkl - I have indeed read the proposal. Many times. Thanks for asking.

Could you explain how those who lobby for different legislation that you are supporting rape, abuse and assault those in prostitution. It is punters who do that..

Jean did not speak to survivors of sex industry / exited women. I stand by that assertion. Neither did she speak to frontline staff or services who work with those in prostitution. Why not I wonder?

Currently police Scotland and crown office have policy guidance to NOT arrest women when more than 2 are together. It is a misrepresentation to suggest otherwise.

[Ubik1]

I would be very unhappy if a brothel
Opened up In my close. People coming Bd going all day, all the skanky punters and everything else it brings.

Could that become legal?

Am I right that NI is about the criminalise the purchase of sex and scotland is having to respond as we may see an increase in sex tourism and all the delightful stuff that brings.

I don't really buy the argument that because some people go it and it works for them, that society should prioritise their 'rights' over the good of our communities as a whole.

I would support criminalising the purchase of sex

[weeonion]

Museummum - there is a harm reduction report for last year in Edinburgh which shows what clinical staff, front line workers and services think of the system in Edinburgh and what they are supporting the women with. I agree with you that they are a key voice here and their opinion is hugely important. They were not consulted during the writing up of the current proposals.
They did respond to previous consultations however and clearly said that they saw it as violence and exploitation.

[emmawinkI3]

"Am I right that NI is about the criminalise the purchase of sex"

That's right, NI implemented the "swedish model" this summer. Since then 1 client and 4 sexworkers have been arrested. (The sexworkers were arrested for- you guessed it- working together.)

"scotland is having to respond as we may see an increase in sex tourism"

Even with legal brothels, I don't think many people are going to drive all the way to Scotland (which is for the most part one big wasteland with few people and lots of sheep) past huge cities like Newcastle and Manchester.