Why do men do this?

[TooOldForGlitter]

Of course, NAM, but really, why? It's 7.40 Saturday morning. A new nursery is being built down the road and its on my dog walking path. I walk by and there are two vans parked up on the pavement, clearly blokes about to start work on the new nursery. They just do this thing when they see you coming down the road and start to stare. As if to see if you'll look away first, or get your 'phone out and pretend to be on the phone. Its as if they don't want you to feel like you can walk down a pavement without feeling uncomfortable. I'm not going to go into all the minute things they do I think I'm just saying, I'm not alone in seeing and feeling this am I?

I would not be surprised to find that the type of man who thinks he's entitled to a woman's smile and thinks the way to get one is by staring at her to the point she puts her head down and try's to walk past quickly, thinks he's entitled to other things from her and responds with verbal insults/threats or physical abuse when told to fuck off.

This.

And I also think the kind of man who complains about women complaining about this behaviour is likely behaving like this himself.

It's just the same entitled attitude. They want to threaten women, but they don't want to hear the truth about themselves.

To those who are still sceptical about the power of the stare try going to the zoo and staring at the gorillas or monkeys. Direct eye contact IS a threat, and averting your eyes is a submissive behaviour. And THAT is what the men starring are waiting for for you to realise they ARE starring at you, and then to either smile, or avert your eyes, BOTH of which are submissive behaviours. Or you to totally avoid looking at them, or walk past pretending you haven't noticed............. It's as much a submissive gesture as a dog rolling on its back, and they get a kick out of it directly, plus the kudos of all their mates noticing.

Those of us with cats probably already know that staring is bad manners, and that making eye contact, and looking away is seen as a friendly gesture (well, as friendly as cats ever get!). And actually, our gaze detection system is very finely tuned - and also consider the fact that the white of human eyes is MUCH more prominent than in many other species - it means we CAN tell the difference very well between someone looking vaguely in our direction and someone looking AT us. It's a clear threat, and chaps know it is, whether it is down the pub looking for a fight, or the ritualised eye-widening in the haka.

Reminds me of something that happened last night.

DS2 is just 2. He was standing next to me and we were discussing favourite colours - he asked DP what his favourite colour was. DP didn't answer quickly enough, so he wrinkled up his nose (his angry face) and said 'DADDY. WHAS YOUR FAVRIT !' DP wrinkled his nose back, bent down to talk to him and said in a normal voice (but with wrinkled nose) 'purple' - this went back and forth a couple of times, both with wrinkled noses but DP not loudly or genuinely angry - just copying DS's face, and then DS2 turned to me, very quietly and seriously, and said - 'I'm gonna punch him'

There was no anger, just looking in a certain way, and it escalated to DS2 feeling the need to assert himself aggressively. He's not an aggressive kid generally - he's pretty average - but if a 2 year old can detect that from a look and a wrinkled nose, I think a grown woman certainly can.

Just a reminder that it's not 'man-hating' to dislike men who act in an intimidating way.

It's 'intimidating-man-hating'. Which equates to disliking a small subset of men for the way they behave. Because - clearly - not all men behave like socially inept arseholes.

I have been a victim of DV, and I pretty much always smile in this kind of situation. As pp said, you regain some control.
If I'm walking past a group of men and they start shouting at me, I tend to just raise my eyebrows and shake my head. They don't think I'm intimidated by them and it's not enough of a reaction to satisfy them. They just look like idiots. I've had a few men apologise for their friends' behaviour when ive responded like this in the past.
I refuse to let men intimidate me with this kind of behaviour. Not that I think that's their aim most of the time

I just walk past them completely ignoring them, which to my mind is better than giving them any reaction at all.

I do, actually, sometimes exchange smiles with random strangers in the street - men and women - for whatever reason; but predominantly because I caught their eye, and they were behaving like a normal human being. This is normal human interaction surely, and recognisably different from the, again, small subset of men who behave in a way that makes me (and clearly many other women) feel uncomfortable.

I've stared back, rolled my eyes and shaken my head like a disciplinary teacher a couple of times, in reaction to street-man intimidation. It does undoubtedly regain your power.

But why should I need to regain my power? It shouldn't be taken from me in the first place!

It comes down to a total lack of good manners on the part of these types of men.

Shaking your head and giving them a telling off death-state is just as likely to result in them laughing at you, and there's nothing 'empowering' about that.

I used to tell guys who did this to fuck off when I was a gobby teenager. I stopped after a group of guys took offence and stalked me down the road shouting I was a snob and a bitch.

Pretty intimidating, particularly as I was 15 and they were in their 20s

Dowager I exchange smiles with random people in the street too. I also let people out at difficult junctions when the traffic is heavy, I also stop my car to let people cross the road. I agree, it's because I see them as human beings.

Men stare because they assume women accommodate. They don't stare at other men like that.

Can I just say that, ime, this is totally wrong. The average man that stares at women is just as likely to stare at other men too. Especially at men like me. They size you up, judge your masculinity and will often pass judgement and make comment. It's not the same as its not sexual, I want to say its with violence but not really violence? Almost like they look at a woman and judge if they could sleep with them but they look at men as if judging if they can fight them, does that make sense? It's different but similar and equally intimidating and upsetting.

I don't go to Wickes any more because of the average reaction I get. I get stuff delivered instead.

Yy somedyke.

So, some men stare with sexual aggression at women and with other physical aggression at men they perceive to be weaker? Is that your nessage?

I wear overalls and a big warm hat on my walk to work. Not easy to tell my sex.

People move out of my way, no one stares me down to get me to move out of their path. As I thought about this, I realised 'people' was men. Women don't expect me to move for them when I'm dressed normally, we both make an allowance so we can pass. Men stare and expect you to budge.

I am not under any illusions that it's all about me, or that I'm just so gorgeous that they can't help themselves. I struggle to understand people who try to convince me, and themselves, that these men just want to exchange a cheery good morning. I know the look, I know why they do it, it's power it's not wanting to greet a stranger.

"some men stare with sexual aggression at women and with other physical aggression at men they perceive to be weaker? Is that your message?"
Not really. I was just trying to show that it's NOT just a look, and the 'stare and you look away', or 'stare and can I make you smile' game being played by some men directed at women IS about dominance and submission. And they do it towards women because they expect us to submit BECAUSE we're women. They might also try to be dominant over SOME men in the same way, but I betcha it's SOME men as opposed to MOST women.

And after a quick search, I found some rather unsavoury offerings on an 'how to pick up the girls type website' (let's not give them any more clicks by giving the url!). I quote:

"Good strong eye contact is an emblematic trait of leaders and powerful men because it is an overt display of dominance. A man who is poor at holding it is seen by women as a fragile man who cannot handle her eyes nor handle her. This is certainly not an impression you want to give. Simply put, women get wet for dominance and for the rare men who display it."

Enuf said..................

Ah, sorry, the first bit if my post was to you but the second to Seeyou, I should have put his name in as well!

And urrrrrrgh to the "get wet for dominance" shizzle!

So, some men stare with sexual aggression at women and with other physical aggression at men they perceive to be weaker? Is that your nessage?

That's what I've found and I'd say its very very common between men. Even just walking past one another in the street, from my point of view they'll see me approach, their head comes up, their shoulders go back and the chest comes forward. Their neck stiffens and they walk with that "I'm desperate for a dump" sort of gait. Usually with fists clenched. They scowl and often say things, sometimes not, then I'm past and on my merry way until the next 'man' I come across.

I'd say, from my perspective, that is probably 90% of the men I encounter.

In DIY shops, where the real men hang out , its worse. I've had them ask me what I'm doing in there and laugh in my face. One guy shoulder barged me out of the way because I was looking at a section of the screws that he evidently wanted to look at.

Bit I could sit and type hundreds of examples of when I've been judged as lesser and intimidated and such. I won't though.

It all seems that a lot of men feel the need to put on an overtly aggressive and dominant front with people, I don't know why? Like theyre all part of the same pissing contest that not everyone knows the rules too.
Does that make sense? Probably not, I tend to confuse myself a lot.

That's interesting. So presumably you believe OP and other women's reports then?

What? In DIY shops men have asked "What are you doing in here" ?

Men have come up to you with clenched fists?

Crikey I don't want to live where you live.

I find Wickes to be quite boring.

Just wondering what would be good wording to use if reporting this kind of behaviour, that conveys the threat level?

I'd use "got in my face/staring me down" for a man deliberately standing in my way. Am sure there's more evocative phrasing though, that screams dominance display (cynically I suspect that describing behaviour that might be aimed at men too would be taken more seriously).

I believe there are different situations and each should be judged on their own merits.
Eg: OP in this thread was stared at for an extended period as she approached work men. There was no reason for them to stare for that long that I can think of other than intimidation and being fuckwits.
Instead mother thread, deleted now, about an hypothetical of a man stood who was looking in the general direction of someone and asking how the repliers would perceive such situation. In the situation it isn't clear whether the guy was being a dick or not so should be judged slightly differently.

Like, if I was sat in a cafe and a woman drifted away and looked in my general direction and it made me uncomfortable and I said something to her, she should apologise even though she wasnt doing it maliciously. If she was consciously sat staring, even if she was thinking I looked OK, and it made me uncomfortable, which it would, then she'd be doing it purposefully and there for totally at fault.

I have absolutely never noticed this happen. I must be hideous and repellent to the opposite sex!