Am I a self-defined woman?

[iisme]

A woman's group I am a member of is now stating that it is for 'self-defined women'. I appreciate that this is about inclusivity and I don't have a problem with trans-women joining the group. But I feel uncomfortable about the idea of being a self-defined woman. Firstly, I don't feel like I define myself as a woman. I am a woman and I'm fine with being a women (though pissed off with all the crap that comes with it) but it doesn't define who I am. I also don't feel, even if I am defined as a woman, that I am self-defined. I recognise my female biology and this is part of what makes me feel like a woman, and I experience life as a woman in a male-dominated world, and this is the other part of what makes me feel like a woman. But most of what I feel it is to be a woman is defined for me by society - something that is put on me because I am female bodied, and not something that I am choosing or defining myself.

Another woman's group I was looking at is for 'self-identified women'. This feels less problematic for me but I'm still not sure about it. I do identify as a woman in the ways I described above, but I again, I feel like most of the issues around being a woman are about external identification - because I am identified as a woman by others. My own internal identification - the core of who I feel who I am - is non-gendered.

Anyway, I'm trying to work through my thoughts and think about whether these phrases really are an issue and whether this is something I should address in the group. I'd be really glad to hear other opinions on this.

almond when I wrote that post about feeling female it was purely with regard to my body - I did put in that post I didn't go into the cultural stuff.
Feeling female for me is more than my body. I really don't fancy going into it though as gender stereotypes get mentioned and that's not seen as acceptable.

Also you feel English but not British, sorry I assumed that when you said you didn't feel British you didn't feel any nationality - my mistake.

Whenshewas, I think it can matter individually if someone has a gender identity and that identity contains harmful stereotypes. I think if someone considers themselves dominant or subordinate as part of their gender identity, that is harmful to them and those around them.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a female having feminine interests.

There is a collective problem with expecting people to define based on a notion of gender identity, or defining most female bodied people as having a gender identity, without ever explaining to them what the characteristics of such a thing are.

I mean, the whole notion that it is an individual choice collapses if most people who society perceives as women turn around and say they don't identify as women. If this happened, I think trans women would stop saying they were women and start saying they were part of whatever group female bodied people were describing themselves as being. And society would treat whatever group female bodied people identified as as a subordinate group and treat them poorly.

Whenshewas, I think it can matter individually if someone has a gender identity and that identity contains harmful stereotypes

I'm sure it can but not all stereotypes are harmful.

Yes, I agree that not all are harmful.

But I can't know whether or not the stereotypes or characteristics of female gender identity are harmful if nobody will specify what they are!

And while nobody specifies what they are, then a lot of people are going to assume that they are the old, harmful stereotypes of what women's brains are like.

In all honesty almond there is no hope of me being able to attempt to explain every single aspect of my life that in some way affects how I feel about feeling like a woman. And then explain it on mn.

Just think about why you feel English - every aspect of your life that feeds into that and then imagine trying to explain it.

The gender thing would honestly be like writing an essay - there's no way I could do it on a thread.

I could explain the ways in which I feel English pretty easily, but I don't think that matters. I don't think even if you explained in lots of detail and at length what your gender identity was, that would help. I think you are very good at explaining, but the characteristics of gender identity are not based on how similar each of us is or is not to you as a woman.

There needs to be some kind of clear explanation that is widely agreed upon by most of the people who believe in genderism (or whatever you want to call your ideology) as to what the characteristics are of this thing called a self defined or self identified woman.

It is incredibly frustrating, worrying and frankly absurd that people are going around assuming that most women identify as something that has no stated characteristics.

It is even more worrying that you want to use that to replace the category of biological sex, which does have an agreed set of characteristics that are important.

And I find it really hard to believe that this isn't really about biological sex. If 95% of female bodied people declared themselves gender queer tomorrow and demanded gender queer changing rooms, hospital wards, and health facilities, would the remaining 5% of women and trans women be happy to be in the category 'woman?'

And I am not criticising you for trying to explain. I appreciate your efforts. I know another poster asked for people to describe their own personal experiences of having a gender identity.

There needs to be some kind of clear explanation that is widely agreed upon by most of the people who believe in genderism, as to what the characteristics are of this thing called a self defined or self identified woman

Does there?

There's no clear definition of there characteristics (biological, socially and culturally) that define woman. So it's not really much of a shock that there isn't a clear definition for a self defined woman.

There are definitely clearly defined biological characteristics that make someone a woman eg being an adult human female. I can't believe anyone is seriously suggesting that there's any debate about this! Wtaf??

Biological, social and cultural whatdoi

There's no need for cultural and social definitions though? An adult human female may be part of any one of thousands of different cultures and societies, she will remain a woman by virtue of her biology. That's what a woman is, an adult human female.

There's no need for cultural and social definitions though?

I think there is, don't get me wrong I think biology is hugely hugely important. But -

Firstly there isn't a definitive definition of a woman. The Olymipics committee has been trying to find a biological definition for a women that works for all women - but it's still not found one.

Yes there is an everyday definition of woman. Generally we know when we are talking to a man or a woman (not always though - my brother has been mistaken for a woman on a few occasions).
The thing is with who society thinks are women - that's not always a 100% biological woman. In general most people are more than happy to think of intersex women as women.
More and more in society people are happy to view transwomen as women too.

I'm not convinced it's a black and white picture of this is a real woman and this is a real man.

Unless you actually are an athlete, the decisions made by the Olympic committee aren't used to define you.

Whether or not people recognise you as male or female (like your brother) is not the same as whether you are defined as male or female. The Olympics committee is defining people as male or female in a sporting capacity only. It does not change those people's legal status in the rest of society.

People are defined as male or female or as being a one of a range of different intersex conditions which we can call sexes based on their genes, gonads and genitals. That is it.

Intersex people may choose to be included in either the male or female group in a range of social situations because they are a very small minority, but they are stil intersex, are aware they are intersex, and have been defined as intersex.

The fact that you can describe intersex people are not 100% biological woman very strongly suggests that you do know what the definition of a biological woman is and you know what the definition of an intersex person is.

'There needs to be some kind of clear explanation that is widely agreed upon by most of the people who believe in genderism, as to what the characteristics are of this thing called a self defined or self identified woman

Does there?

There's no clear definition of there characteristics (biological, socially and culturally) that define woman. So it's not really much of a shock that there isn't a clear definition for a self defined woman.'

But from what I can remember of my reading of Judith Butler, a crucial part of the argument for why we should reject biological definitions and replace them with self-identification was that the biological definitions don't work (all those cases at the fuzzy margins due to intersex conditions) so the only definition that DOES work is self-identification. If a self-identification definition can't be defined doesn't that rather pull the rug out from under the whole argument?

I also think that things do not need to be black and white to be a useful definition. That is again trying to turn things back into a binary. The characteristics in a definition should be clearly explained, even if there are then grey areas in their application.

The idea of a gender identity woman has no characteristics at all.

How would this work for any other biological state?

We're not always sure if someone is pregnant. Let's make pregnancy self defined!

We're not sure if someone is alive. Let's make being alive self defined!

We're not sure if someone has a cyst on their brain. Let's make having a cyst on your brain self defined!

We're not sure if someone has a specific intersex condition that has consequences for their medical treatment. Let's make having that intersex condition self defined!

We're not sure if someone is 13 or 22. Let's make age self defined!

The idea of a gender identity woman has no characteristics at all

At its most simple (in my opinion) have a gender identity of female simply means that you feel female / a woman.

Intersex people may choose to be included in either the male or female group in a range of social situations because they are a very small minority, but they are stil intersex, are aware they are intersex

Well firstly not all intersex people are aware they are intersex. Some only find out later around puberty. Also there have been cases of an intersex condition only coming to light when an adult has surgery/medical investigations.

Also yes intersex people are a small minority but so are transsexuals (I think they are an even smaller group but I could be wrong on that).

I genuinely don't understand why it's ok for an intersex woman to be accepted as a woman but not a transwoman.

I am an adult human female.
I have XX chromosomes.
Female hormonal endocrinology.
Uterus, vaginas, ovaries, breasts.
I've experienced menarche, pregnancy, miscarriage, birth, breastfeeding and menopause.
I've experienced medical procedures and interventions related to the above. Smears. CVS. Amniocentesis. Mammograms. Repair of third degree perineum tears.
From the day i was born and every day of my life I've experienced being treated as one member of half the human race which is considered inferior by my society, and every day I am reminded of how people like me are considered less important than the other half of the human race.
I've had my opportunities limited and been discriminated against because I belong to this group, not the other one.
I do not legally have the same right to bodily autonomy as the other group.
My potential reproductive capacity has had a major impact upon my life.
I feel a solidarity with people like me who, by virtue of being born in other countries have an inconceivably worse time of it due to being part of the same group as me.

I've decided I don't have a gender. I don't want one. I have an unchangeable biological sex and that is enough. I am female.

Most of the time, I just think of myself as a person. But just sometimes, I feel the need to be with only people who share some, or most, or all of these experiences. And only with people like me.

Just on occasion.

Female only.

There is a member of my family who is intersex. She has shared many of the experiences I have and we have much in common. Her entire life we have both experienced what it means to be female.

Just to clarify my typo.
I only have the one vagina.
Autocorrect weirdly insists on pluralising it.

A female gender identity is feeling female. The characteristics of feeling female are...?

A female person is a person whose biological sex is female. The characteristics of female biological sex include having all of the following at birth: gametes present, xx chromosomes, clitoris and labia.

Can you see how one of those things has characteristics and the other does not?

Intersex conditions, just like being female, are defined based on biological information. The definitions for intersex are not simpler or clearer than the ones for female. You keep talking about intersex as if it is uncovered through surgery etc. So you seem to understand its biological definition. How is it possible that you can simultaneously understand intersex as a biological sex category but view female as some kind of mysterious abstract quality that you cannot understand as a category of biological sex? If you can explain one thing, I'd like it to be that.

Of course we don't always define people's sex correctly based on our social understanding of biological characteristics. In any system of categorisation, we will not be right every single time. But all those decisions are still made based on our definitions of genes, gonads and genitals.

Being trans has nothing to do with genes, gonads or genitals, as far as we understand and define them. It is not similar to being intersex.

Exactly Hairy. Well put.

Over the last few months we have had a number of threads on the topic of MTF trans. Are they male, female? Should they be allowed in female only spaces such as toilets? Which prisons should they go to? Are they a risk in female spaces etc. etc.

Meanwhile, deathly silence about FTM trans who don't appear, as far as I know, to want to be such special snowflakes.

Bottom line - it's all about the menz, isn't it? (NAMALT & NATALT obviously).

I used to get mistaken for a boy quite a lot when I was younger, but I wasn't. Being mistaken for the opposite sex doesn't have any bearing on what sex you actually are.

Sorry, that was to Whenshewas.

Hairycarrot, I agree.

how is it possible you understand intersex as biology but view female as abstract?

(Sorry copy and paste isn't working on my phone).

I have actually previous said that I do think biology is hugely important but it isn't the only factor.
Most women aren't intersex, most of the time a woman who is born XX with vagina and uterus will call herself a woman (in fact the vast majority of the time this is what happens).
But not always. Some people are born with a very similar body to me but don't want to call themselves female they want to call themselves male.