Radio 5 phone in on consent at 9.00am

[Caprinihahahaha]

They just called to see if I wanted to go on but I have laryngitis .
I'm not feeling well so maybe I shouldn't listen. I have a feeling it's going to give me the rage.

It's such an interesting topic though - they are picking up on the students refusing to go to lectures on consent because they are 'not rapists'.

These work courses, by the way, in equality and diversity, are about large corporations protecting themselves from law suits. They are often offered by the most racist, sexist organisations. Courses often make management feel secure in continuing unacceptable behaviour rather than combating it.

"Women have been trained to know more about consent because they are the ones whose boundaries are more frequently crossed."

Sadly, this isn't always true. There are women who have a skewed view of consent. For some a course like this would be a revalation.

Every year I have to do a safeguarding training exercise. It's mostly -gasp- common sense I do this without hesitation, as do others, but no one thinks or says 'Well, I'm not a paedophile, child sex abuser, child abuser.' It's compulsory anyway.

Women are trained to believe that sex is a male right, that overrides their feelings towards a healthy sex life. Because you know, that Prince is going to rescue you and take you for his bride and you are going to fall in love with him.

Elendon,

Your safeguarding course, again, is not teaching you how not to abuse children. It is teaching you to keep them safe from others and spot signs of abuse. It is not remotely the same thing.

No Larry, you are missing the point I'm making spectacularly.

The course is common sense, it's not teaching me anything, merely providing certain scenarios and getting you to put down your opinion. It's not meant to 'catch anyone out'. I don't get all defensive because I have to do it.

Of course a consent course is needed in university. It should be mandatory anyway in institutions that require written consent for procedures, such as the NHS. Being the bearer of high intelligence does not preclude you from ignoring the express wishes of others.

in that case, nor does a course.

If you fail the course, it will be flagged up.

These courses could save institutions such as universities and hospitals millions of pounds per year on litigation. Yes, let's put money first because that's the juicy carrot.

What it also does, is give the person a clear definition of consent. This clear definition is what everyone gets. It's safeguarding the institution. It's safeguarding the individual, both those who serve and those who receive.

This item is not just simply about not being a criminal larry - I'd assume it's about not being an assumptive knob and getting to grasp that particularly as a young person there are errors in conduct toward others that can easily be 'educated' out. Esp. I'd guess that many of the young people at colleges simply do not have a hinterland of relationships and experiences to use as guides.
And of course many young men will have absorbed lessons from their various role models that allow unwarranted approaches and actions toward women and girls.

And yes MrB is highly performing tosser.

I had to go to a training session this week on something which I am expert in and has been the sole focus of my work for the last 10 years or so. I could have made the presentation myself. I also had to do an assessment at the end to make sure I had understood it. Everyone in my workplace had to do it and it never occurred to me to object as a) I might have learnt something and b) it was compulsory. I didn't learn anything much from the presentation itself but the conversations it prompted were useful and enlightening. It would have looked very bad if I had objected to going. I can see why it would cross someone's mind that they didn't need to go to the consent workshop, but no excuse for not thenn realising that if everyone else does they do too.

Looking further back up thread, the driver/re-test analogy just doesn't fly, when you consider the number of really bad drivers out there, who are utter strangers to the highway code. Drivers self-perception of themselves as 'good drivers' only usually goes so far as 'what they know' about driving, rather than 'what they should know and actually do'.

Though just because someone objects to going on such a course as this doesn't necessarily mean they are in most need of it, just gives rise for a quizzical look at them.

yes, I'm currently immersed in rolling out learning disability awareness and personality disorder awareness in my organisation, in one role. In another role I was attending a training course in one of these. That day massively added to my notions to how best do the role-out process. The temptation to sit with crossed arms just wasn't entertained.

This is worth a read:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/oct/17/a-letter-to-the-mother-of-the-boy-who-raped-my-daughter

Yes, I read that just now, after posting. Some people just don't think the rules apply to them, and if their parents never thought to educate them they are at real risk of becoming rapists through lack of awareness. In that case we can't be sure the boys parents didn't try and educate him though. All the more reason for the courses.

Would any of you attend a course on how not to be an abusive parent?

Absolutely. I imagine such a course would probably include a good deal of reflection about unconscious bias, appropriate behaviour management for challenging situations and behaviours, all kinds of things that one cannot assume one knows from a limited experience of life. Different children have different needs - what's fine for one child can be experienced as abuse by another. I'd welcome the chance to think about this and work on strategies with a professional who is equipped to guide and assist.

It's interesting that some posters have assumed the courses are only for men.

As far as I am aware the courses are for all freshers. So the 'don't call me a rapist' stuff is even more defensive.

this is one report on a similar course

What this really gets down to is whether you trust yourself to know everything you need to on the topic of consent, or whether you want a workshop to discuss the issue. Many who feel that their understanding of consent is sufficient might just not see the point in going to the course, others would go even though they don't think they will learn anything new, sort of like the annual health and safety courses people suffer through at work even though the content has remained the same year after year.

No it doesn't.
It comes down to universities trying to do something about the huge difficulties some students regularly experience during their time there and some idiots trying to make a purile point because they want to think they know better.

And the student is not stopping the university doing something about those difficulties, he is not stopping people who feel they need a workshop to understand consent sufficiently enough from going and getting that knowledge.

It's compulsory. It's held amidst the healthy and safety stuff and welcome meetings.
Anyone refusing to go to any of the compulsory lectures is putting his own personal ego ahead of what should be a universal, campus wide programme.

Selfish, small minded, defensive.
And again, any 18 year old who professes that they literally have not one single thing to explore around consent - given that it is an incredibly complicated issue - is absolutely flagging himself up as the most in need of attending.

If any of my children, aged 18, said 'I literally know every thing there is to know about consent' I would realise I had done a tragically piss poor job in raising them.

"Selfish, small minded, defensive.
And again, any 18 year old who professes that they literally have not one single thing to explore around consent - given that it is an incredibly complicated issue - is absolutely flagging himself up as the most in need of attending."

It's not selfish because he isn't causing an issue for anyone else. The only person this has a negative fallout for is him because he'll be in trouble for not going to a compulsory course. You won't be affected by it, neither will anyone else, so why do we care if he goes or not? And it's not defensive either, he's simply decided the course isn't for him because he has nothing to learn from it. You might challenge this but who are you to judge whether he knows enough? Do you know him better than he knows himself?

You're doing a disservice to a lot of 18 year olds. I accept that many don't know all they need to about consent, but the flip side is that many do, and going to such a course is a waste of time for those people. What's the point of an 18 year old with sufficient understanding of consent going to a course where they give you a sufficient understanding of consent? There isn't one, it's as pointless as those health and safety courses we all go to. They are compulsory if you want to keep your job yes but that doesn't change the fact that they are almost always a waste of time for people with a sufficient enough understanding on the topic.

What if the person who feels they know all there is to know about consent is actually wrong and doesn't know as much as he/she thinks they do?

But potentially the fallout isn't for him at all. If he is mistaken, and his interactions fall into the category where he thinks he is just 'trying his luck' and 'having a bit of fun' and another person finds his behaviour threatening and coercive, then it is the other person who suffers the fallout, not him.

"If any of my children, aged 18, said 'I literally know every thing there is to know about consent' I would realise I had done a tragically piss poor job in raising them."

Has it crossed your mind that if they said that it may be because they actually DO know everything they need to know about consent? You have a very low opinion of 18 year olds, assuming it's beyond their reaches to be capable of knowing what consent is.

I'm not doing a disservice to 18 year olds . I think you are actually.

Your position is that an 18 year old might well know all there is to know about consent and should decline the course. I think most 18 year olds are smart and considerate enough to want to educate themselves as much as possible, because they are not afraid of being exposed to a topic which calls upon them to listen to and absorb different view points.

Saying, 'but they might know everything' reminds me of the parents who are affronted that their school wants to have lessons around bullying. Often the parents of the children who could do with them. Because their parents have taught them that their views, wishes and opinions are paramount.

Sounds very similar. Any parent telling their 18 year old that they have no need to think or talk about consent is as much of a problem as the young person refusing.