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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why isn't rape a hate crime?

162 replies

grimbletart · 13/10/2015 13:48

Just that really.
I was reading about the reported increase in hate crimes involving race, religion, disability, sexual orientation and transgenderism.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34515763

To be a rapist you really have to hate or despise women or you couldn't inflict such pain and humiliation on them.

I'm sure plenty of posters will come along and say I'm impractical, wrong, daft or whatever, but to me, as well as issues such as control, entitlement etc. rape really is a crime of hate.

So why not?

OP posts:
slugseatlettuce · 16/10/2015 16:52

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00100001 · 16/10/2015 16:59

If sex is to be added (i'm nto saying it shouldn't)

Then shouldn't Age be added too?

thedancingbear · 16/10/2015 17:02

Then shouldn't Age be added too?

I'd have no problem with that.

slugseatlettuce · 16/10/2015 17:06

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WMittens · 16/10/2015 17:14

why the law defines hate in a certain way

It doesn't - 'Hate Crime' is a specific term.

'Hate' is a different term, and is arguably present in most or all non-victimless(?) crimes.

WMittens · 16/10/2015 17:16

Nobody has explained to me (as far as I can see) what hate actually means, in this context. Maybe that'd be a good starting point.

00100001 did, 6 (ish) posts before yours:

Well. The law says for it to be Hate Crime, the offender attacked the victim because of a particular reason:

"Hate crime involves any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a personal characteristic. Hate crime can be motivated by disability, gender identity, race, religion or faith and sexual orientation."

Gov.uk site

SenecaFalls · 16/10/2015 17:17

The age issue in many (if not most) jurisdictions in the US is that there can be additional statutes under which sexual and other types of assault can be charged if the victim is older. In my state the jurisdictional age is 60 and over.

LurcioAgain · 16/10/2015 17:18

I've been trying to see how this would connect (if at all - this is a sort of brain dump starting point) with the article you posted on the "radio 5 discussion on consent"thread, Buffy. If I understood it, it tried to distinguish between men who were prepared to self identify as rapists, men who were prepared to self identify as having obtained sex by physical coercion but didn't describe themselves as rapists, and men whoddidn't place themselves in either category. The authors then tried to correlate this with two other attitudes - degree of hypermasculinity and degree of negative affect towards women. They identified the relevant hypermascule beliefs as a tendency to objectify and a tendency to see men as dominant. Negative affect went further - belifs that women were intrinsically manipulative, dishonest etc.

Both rapists and coercive sex carriers- out (hard to come up with a phrase which describes them as they see themselves) identified with high degrees of engagement in a hypermasculine world view, in contrast to what I'm tempted to describe simply as "decent men". But the self identified rapista and the coercive sex inflicters differed on level of negative affect.

I guess I'd gloss this as the first are full on misogynists while the others really (if erroneously) think they have no beef with women as a group, just that this particular woman got uppity and had to be slapped down.

Is one a kind of hate crime but not the other?

(Incidentally, Buffy, the abstract made my jaw drop and not in a good way, by describing the attitudes of the coercers as "benevolent sexism". I had this "fuck me, you can use 'benevolent' in this context?" moment. )

SenecaFalls · 16/10/2015 17:21

Although I can't think of age related hate as easily as female related hate

I agree, but the dynamics of family and sexual violence against elders has a lot in common with the dynamics of violence against women. Older people are devalued in society, older women especially so.

grimbletart · 16/10/2015 17:22

I didn't want to post and vanish. It was a question posed to kick start a debate, thus the why not? I honestly don't know what I think.

I am having real difficulty separating what would be possible in law from the moral issue.

Morally I feel that a rapist would not be a rapist unless he was driven by negative feelings about women e.g. he had hatred or contempt for them in the same way that someone who beats up a man because he is Asian or has a disability or is, say, transgender has hatred or contempt for the group from which the victim comes. I see women as a group in the same way that, say, Asians are a group in that context.

The individual suffering is representative of a group for whom the rapist/attacker has hatred or contempt.

Now, it may be that, legally it doesn't stack up as ALass indicates. As I said I expected to be told I'm wrong, daft, impractical…

However, the law seems to find a way to decide that a crime may be aggravated when it comes to the victims coming from various groups within the population and takes the crime against those individuals more seriously/gives stronger sentences etc. in those circumstances. In other words society and the law gives out a strong moral message.

But women, as a group, do not attract the same consideration.

So, I asked why not?

Perhaps the argument is that it is possible to beat up, for example, an Asian man simply because you had a fight with him and it was nothing to do with his ethnicity: and by the same token it is possible to rape a woman because you happened to dislike her individually and it was nothing to do with the fact that she was a woman. But is it?

I dunno. But I've found all the points being made food for thought. Smile

OP posts:
00100001 · 16/10/2015 17:26

OK, so if were adding sex and age to the list

Why not add... Hair colour?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 16/10/2015 17:30

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SenecaFalls · 16/10/2015 17:36

I think it comes down to the usual issues about rape, perhaps? That its so linked in the social consciousness with sex... The law has a hard time viewing rape as hostile or based on prejudice, because it's associated with being overcome by passion. A love crime, not a hate crime, is how it's unconsciously viewed?

Yes. This attitude is especially prevalent in sexual assault of older women. Who would rape an old woman? Lots of people, as it turns out, but prosecuting these cases can be very difficult.

slugseatlettuce · 16/10/2015 17:39

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slugseatlettuce · 16/10/2015 17:39

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LurcioAgain · 16/10/2015 17:46

Would it help to firm up the distinction between the moral and legal points if one came up with a concrete (albeit fictitious) example. Suppose one of the online trolls who threaten women with rape as a punishment for expressing feminist views online (or indeed simply being a woman in possession of an opinion in a public place) were to actually carry out the threat and rape the woman. Further let's suppose that there was a plethora of blog posts, tweets, e- mails establishing that he not merely hated women but thought they should be politically disenfranchised and saw this particular rape as an instance of"corrective rape". Would it be possible to prosecute this as a hate crime?

Now supppse the details were almost exactly parallel, only with a self professed whote supremacist, a member of an ethnic minority and a severe assault. Would this be prosecuted aa racially aggravated, and/or a hate crime?

And if you do have different answers (first isn't a hate crime legally, second is), what's the difference based on?

(Apologies for crap typing on phone btw)

slugseatlettuce · 16/10/2015 17:54

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LurcioAgain · 16/10/2015 17:55

Argh poxy phone means I'm constantly playing catch up.

The othering vs all have mums, sisters etc distinction. Does this connect up with the self identified rapist who thinks all women are slags who have it coming versus self identified practitioner of coercive sex who "loves women", just thinks "this one was a bitch who wouldn't put out when I'd bought her a drink."

SenecaFalls · 16/10/2015 18:01

Both examples should be hate crimes. The second clearly would be in any jurisdiction that has laws against hate crimes. And the first would likely be a hate crime in every jurisdiction in the US that includes gender as a protected category. These statutes use "gender" and not "sex," but it is clear that they mean gender in the sense of "sex" as "gender identity" is usually listed as a separate category.

LurcioAgain · 16/10/2015 18:07

Phew that's good to know Seneca.

SenecaFalls · 16/10/2015 18:19

Well, getting it prosecuted as such would be a different matter altogether, Lurcio.

slugseatlettuce · 16/10/2015 18:24

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WMittens · 16/10/2015 19:02

BuffytheReasonableFeminist

Oh yes, my apologies. So hate is 'hostility or prejudice based on a personal characteristic'

No: that is the definition of a Hate Crime, it is not the definition of hate.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 16/10/2015 19:10

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00100001 · 16/10/2015 19:14

lurcio

It would depend I suppose.

Is the man raping the woman for having feminist views, or because she is a woman? Or both?

Does the same man rape a man that has feminists views?

Does the same man rape the same woman for not having Feminist views.?

If the Fictitious Attack is only attacking women that have feminist views, then one might argue that he is targeting only a particular group of people which would be a Hate Crime imo.

If the Fictitious Attacker is attacking all feminists (and just "happens" to hate women) then can we say that Feminists are a protected category? If we can say 'yes!' then we might argue that Trekkies are a protected category? You may think I am being flippant, I am not. Interestingly enough, Manchester Police are recording incidents against sub-cultures (eg Goth, Emo) as hate Crimes too. source

We might get to the point where all attacks against any person/group of people for any reason would be a Hate Crime.

Should all crimes could be defined as Hate Crimes if we are to define 'hate' as an attack on any person/group of people.

Perhaps we should take the word rape out of this conversation and call it "attack". and ask the question "Why aren't attacks against women Hate Crimes?" Indeed, maybe we should be asking, "Why aren't attacks against people Hate Crimes?"