Something started me thinking about girls and eating this evening.

[BertrandRussell]

I have a 14 year old boy. As all the received wisdom, and Mumsnet agree, he EATS. Constantly. He is always hungry. He is wiry and fit and strong and does not have an ounce of fat on him. His dad says he remembers how incredibly hungry he was at this age, and how his mother struggled to feed him and his brother on a limited budget. When you mention teenage boys,people smile indulgently and share empty fridge anecdotes. It's just how it is.

But 4 years ago, I had a 14 year old girl. Presumably if it's all abour. teenagers and growing, she was just as hungry? But she didn't eat like her brother does. She had a good appetite, and enjoyed food, but I bet if she had got herself a bowl of cereal an hour after dinner, I would have queried it. I would have pointed out that she had just had dinner, suggested she had an apple or a drink. And nobody ever does the fridge anecdotes about girls.

So what's considered OK and is indulged for boys isn't for girls. Girls are supposed to control their intake. Maybe even put up with being hungry? Is there possibly something here about why girls eat secretly, are more likely to have eating disorders.....? I've just thought of this, so it's. Bit disjointed. Does anyone have any thoughts?

My family has always grown their own fruit, veg, eggs and meat and we were comfortably off

It was very little to do with actual need, and more to do with it not being "done" for girls and women to show that they had needs - it would be considered selfish

I wouldn't necessarily agree with sport creating healthy relationships with food. My mother is an athlete and she has a horrible eating habits. She eats far too little to support her exercise because she doesn't want to get "bulky" and she ends up sick all the time.

I also recently got into weightlifting and the diets some weightlifters are on (men and women) are horribly restrictive and obsessive.

Which bit lightbulb? If it's the "gap between satiated and overfull" then I have been thinking and I think that's more of an after effect of poverty than an actual moral idea about food. Because I realised that when I am sure there is ample food, it doesn't bother me. But when somebody overeating means others will get less, or means that shopping/cooking has to be repeated sooner then it makes me feel really anxious. That's not gendered (except that I tend to notice men doing it more than women), it's just an overhang I think of being anxious to have enough food.

Like if we went to an all you can eat buffet, I probably wouldn't even notice how much people were eating. But with normal meals my tendency is to want to save leftovers. I love having a fridge full of leftovers. It makes me feel really secure and happy.

I dunno.

I did wonder if we were being vastly sexist in trying to keep a wary eye on what DD (always nudging overweight) was eating, relative to her brothers (one very underweight and unwilling to eat, one skinny but healthy who can eat for Britain).

But actually, I think we react exactly the same admittedly overthinking middle class paranoid way as our friends who have a plump older boy with a skinny younger sister.

lancie it's tricky.

I have been comfortable with not mentioning my DD's good consumption because she is thin. Were she not, I might have had to address it even if I were concerned how that might impact upon her on other (negative) ways.

Interestingly, some people have said they would still comment on principle.

Did anyone say they would still comment on a girl's consumption? The OP said that she might have if her daughter ate the way her son did ,which seems an odd thing to say as there are usually posters on here saying they want to treat their daughters equally.

But actually, I think we react exactly the same admittedly overthinking middle class paranoid way as our friends who have a plump older boy with a skinny younger sister That's a fair point.

I thought about sport =healthy attitude to food. Not really for the examples given and also shovelling in lots of calories because you know can burn them off doesn't seem a particularly healthy attitude either.

I think wrt sport it really depends on the nature of the activity - obviusly some are much more body-fascist than others, and also anythign involving a weight limit like lightweight categories can be very problematic.

But all the serious teenage athletes I know are definitely not just chucking in calories because they know they'll burn it off, they are careful about ensuring they get the right mix of protein, carbs and vegetables. They eat a lot, but it's all high-quality stuff. I spend a lot of time baking cakes and cereal bars that are heavy on fruit/nuts/seeds/oats - it's definintely not about eating crap just because you can.

ALass- I have explained myself several times!

I suspect it's your refusal to see anything as a feminist issue might be preventing you understanding..........

According to the chart linked to, an 18 year old boy needs 700 calories more than an 18 year old girl. That's a whole large extra meal a day.

At the same time there are massive issues around girls and food. I don't think we've worked out how to address food issues to a group susceptible to malnutrition, eating disorders and obesity at the same time.

It does really depend on the sport - few girls dancing would be 'naturally' that thin if they didn't control their diets and exercise routines to get that bodyshape, but also just look at the international rubgy players now, very few will naturally have that bulky bodyshape either - that's a lot of training and protein heavy diets for a long time.

I guess it's more noticable because girls do stop growing a lot younger, but also stop playing as much sports so don't burn weight in the same way. Plus it's interesting, I hear people talking about their DS's emptying the fridge , but their DD's emptying the buscuit barrel/snack foods. My DCs are only 5 and 2 now, but DS definately has a much less sweet tooth than DD.

It could be less sugary foods looks like more 'bulk' - as said upthread, you can get 300 cals from one chocolate bar, but that doesn't look like a lot of food, whereas a ham sandwich is also around the 300 cal mark (or less) and would be viewed as more like 'another meal'.

Actually, I noted the other day, DS has started rugby at 5, but with the world cup on now, DH is an ex rugby player and talking to some of the other dads, they were talking about if it was 'healthy' for most boys to be trying to acheive that bodyshape - basically, it's considered a bad thing for children to be weight lifting and trying to put on a lot of muscle when their bones are still growing as the heavy muscles effect how the bones grow, this is obviously an issue more for boys as boys are still growing at a much older age than girls, but while still growing, teenage boys are not just working out a little, but trying to create that massive shape at really very low level clubs.

It struck me as it's something I've only heard parents of girls who dance or are gymnasts talk about in the past.

Well I've only read the OP but say aged 10 girls and boys on average are similar heights. Aged 18, the average boy will be several inches taller than the average girl so more growing to be done in the case of the boy?
Also iirc the growth curves for girls and boys are different. There is a section in the boys where it is vv steep.

By the time I was 14 I was the height I am now. This is v common in girls. Less so in boys.

14 year old boys need about 250 calories less than 14 year old girls on average. But I think what I find interesting is the attitude to eating rather than the actual amount.

Bertrand radical feminism is apparently about a wholesale restructuring of society.

Frankly you have an uphill struggle on your hands if you can't even apply its tenets in your own kitchen when there is no one watching you or telling you what to do.

I'm sure you've thought about all this ( I've been told often enough how much feminists think about their choices).

It's practice what you preach , and not even a terribly difficult case. Or is it just easier to blame societal pressure for everything and not actually do anything?

Parents of overweight children are judged, and the mothers much more than the fathers. Boys are less likely to get fat from gluttonous eating if they are exercising more as well as burning off more if they are still growing - it's seen more that they 'need' the extra food, so it's ok, whereas girls getting fat don't 'need' that extra food.

That said, I don't think I ever was lead to feel I couldn't snack, and did do as a teen. I do remember always having 'supper' before bed, which was often as much as another meal. If you feel that your DD wanting additional food was something to comment on, but your DS doing the same wasn't, that is somethingyou need to address yourself, but it's an universal experience (and my mother was a looonnnngggg way from being a feminist, so lack of comments wasn't from a concious decision to give me a positive relationship with food).

"Frankly you have an uphill struggle on your hands if you can't even apply its tenets in your own kitchen when there is no one watching you or telling you what to do."

It is clear that the OP is talking about a response she FELT she may have in that situation. I have no doubt that, as a feminist, she WOULD have moderated what she said. The point is to discuss why she felt it in the first place. We are all subject to societal pressure.

ALass- you do realise this is Feminism Chat don't you? I just thought I'd mention it- because you seem to think one of us shouldn't be having this discussion- and as I am a "self proclaimed" feminist I'm pretty sure I'm OK here......

@ Inickedanames family! Boys 'deserve' food because they are valued more by society.

INicked - it was a very common attitude in working class families where the men did very hard manual work - there wasn't enough food to go around so the men who needed to be able to have the strength to do heavy work got the food, then when food became more plentiful and the work became less physical, the habit of giving the best/majority to the men didn't end. My dad's family did stuff like that. My mum sneered at it and food was never limited or rationed for me more than my DB although he went to a private school and I went to a state school, which I think it the middle class version of the same thing

If dp's grandmother served a chicken, the two most "senior" men got the legs.

Thoughts? Well, reducing it to a stereotypical 'average' household: The idea that a growing lad needs his food allows him to escape the family and societal stigma of being judged on how much he eats. The price he pays for that freedom is the greater chance of being overweight/obese compared to his sister. As adults the sister looks in the mirror and sees someone fatter than she actually is. The brother looks in the mirror and either sees someone thinner or, seeing the fat, does not care about it.

bert my mum still does that with chicken legs. Suits me because I prefer the breast anyway, every weeks we all go to my mums for Sunday dinner, and she always always makes my brother a loaf tin pudding, while everyone gets normal ones. It's become brothers "thing"

I know how childish this is going to sound, I love my Yorkshire puddings (esp my mum's) and have sometimes slipped in conversation how for once, my brother could do a swap and he have a small ones and give me the loaf tin, he laughingly said it's first come first served, (mum lays it all out buffet style) so the following week I made sure I got that fucking loaf tin. You would think I stole his kidney the looks he was giving me. Everyone thought it funny apart from my brother, ended up giving him it back as I felt bad (my fault, I know)

I loved having Sunday dinner at my grans when I was a child, even though the women ate last, I looked forward to listening to conversations between my aunts and my Gran, they told some fascinating stories and it's then I learnt the most about my grans childhood, they always seemed to relax more once the men had gone for a pint, I dunno, I could be remembering it wrong but it always felt like a less strained atmosphere when it was just my gran and aunts.

Growing up I think me and my brothers had an equally huge appetite and, to my knowledge, my mum never treated us differently in respect to how much she served us or comments about our weight.

I remember my dad (who left when I was 11) did comment on my mum's weight a lot, and I think he would have done the same to me as I'd entered puberty if he'd been around. That's just a guess though based on how he treated my mum.

I do remember being small and being indignant that he always got served the biggest steak. I always asked fo some of his to make it fair, and he did always give me some! Children always got the san

Children always got the same serving but my dad usually got a bigger serving than my mum.*

It's a different story at my dp's house. Mil always gives me a smaller portion of things while dp gets a 'mansize' amount. I Wonder if it was the same for dp's sister growing up, I suspect so but I doubt my dp would have noticed. I will ask though.