Charlotte Proudman

[JeanSeberg]

www.theguardian.com/law/2015/sep/08/charlotte-proudman-alexander-carter-silk-linkedin-photo-comment-law-firms

Good for her.

Yes, I thought that too. It wasn't the worst sexist comment ever but, then, why was any comment of that nature necessary? Oh wait....

She is getting a real kicking from the usual quarters on Twitter, if anyone tweets, they might like to go and give her some support?

Anything from the bloke that did it? Of course not. Because it was a sexist comment.

He could prove it wasn't if he had just one, similar connection accept message to a man in which he commented on their photo.

Heavens, has that guy used LinkedIn??

Thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/a2465058-The-barrister-and-her-linked-in-photo?msgid=56524501#56524501

Anything from the bloke that did it?

Yes, he tried to blame it on Charlotte.

my comment was aimed at the professional quality of the presentation on LinkedIn, which was unfortunately misinterpreted

JFC on a bike Yonic!

That thread!

Fuck!

... which was unfortunately misinterpreted... as you can see from these other examples of my responses to male colleagues, in which I often comment on the quality of their avatar photography.

Nope? Yeah, you were judging the photography, not commenting on her looks at all. Just like all those women go to watch Magic Mike for the amazing dialogue, and all the men watched Baywatch for the fantastic plotlines.

I've just quit the thread Plays. I can't stand it!

I forget sometimes how lucky we are to have such kind and friendly posters in FWR.

I did snigger when I read that she was "playing the feminist card" though. Whenever someone says that someone else is "playing" some kind of card, it immediately flags up that that person is no longer worth making the effort of listening to.

As ever, I think in this case the people trying to defend the idiot male lawyer are conveniently forgetting normal social decency.

Very few professional people would go up to anyone they didn't know at a conference and say 'You look stunning, far better than most people here.' It's rude, weird and belittling.

Yet, this guy saw fit to say just that to a fellow professional in a professional setting online. And rather than saying "what a fecking weirdo" people are defending him!

WTF! Regardless of how sexist it was (and it was very sexist) it was just bizarre behaviour from a man who really should know better. It's embarrassing behaviour.

The only reason he felt justified in behaving that way was because she is a good looking woman. I'd wager my last pound that he'd never ever do it to a man.

It's a milder version of people saying that men can't always know if women are enjoying sex. They honestly say that an ordinary functional man who holds down a job can seriously not tell whether a person who is literally centimetres away from him and interacting with him physically is enjoying something or not. They claim such an idiotic thing with a straight face.

It seems that any sort of stupid argument can be put forward to defend a man. The woman always has to be wrong in some way.

Yes I was shocked at the defence which was basically thay she'd approached him! So presumably if she'd applied for a job with him he'd have been justified in commenting on her appearance.
Sadly I suspect a lot of people will assume she's one of these feminists who is always looking to be offended (they're all over don't you know) and her very valid point about work and being treated as a professional will be ignored.

Magic Mike is a movie with a message

This situation has brought up a lot of thoughts and feelings for me.

I have been dipping my toes in the sea of these boards recently (it hasn't always gone well??) but I am keen to expand my knowledge not just of individual issues but of myself.

The man who made the comment was a knob. I have no doubt about that. An attractive woman posting a picture on a career forum should not be seen as inviting comment on her looks. Not at all.

BUT - before I left FB (as I absolutely couldn't handle the bollocks 'politics' or day to day banal nonsense which made me annoyed with people I otherwise am very fond of) - I always posted the most attractive pictures of me.

And I think most people do?. Threads on here about seeing love rivals/ow etc on FB always say 'FB/other social media isn't representative of reality, everyone puts the best pictures on'.

So why? I know my pictures on my old FB were bloody gorgeous. I didn't complain when FB friends said 'stunning' or 'beautiful' but felt a bit yuck when I got PMs from strange men saying the same and making FB friend requests.

But I wouldn't have posted pictures where I looked shit (and there are many, the camera HATES me! ). I honestly take 30 shit pics for every 'beautiful' one.

And I know this is about linked in but the same applies - I wouldn't post a picture where I don't look attractive but would hate a stranger to tell me I am attractive.

So why am I doing it?. I want to look attractive but I don't want to be told I am.
Can anyone offer an insight?. And it's not that I judge worth by attractiveness because I don't. I want to be judged on my intelligence, skills, sense of humour, knowledge, kindness, effectiveness at work.

I want all of these things but I still don't want to be deemed physically unattractive.

Why? Is it so bad?. Or is it that it is a part of me that I want to be recognised as it IS part of me. Or am I just utterly failing as a feminist?.

I was uncomfortable with the whole "broadcast it to twitter thing" initially.

But then I thought "wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been a twat in the first place".

Just a pity that there are even more twats out there to give her such a hard time to daring to stick up for herself.

Icould...it is human nature to be a bit vain, and in our culture, attractiveness is very valuable. No one wants to feel ugly, it's very isolating. The world is a cruel place if you don't fit in, so it's normal to want to blend in as much as possible, and this means fitting in with standards of what is attractive. So I can see why people only want to present themselves at their best.

Sometimes comments are just pure flattery, which feels nice if it is from people who know you and respect you for who you are. A friend who knows you saying you look nice is doing so to make you feel good, and they may just be complimenting you on your make-up/hair/whatever, so while it may not sit well with you philosophically, you take it in the spirit it is meant. A random person seeking out women they don't know on FB and commenting on their attractiveness feels more predatory and intrusive.

I don't think LinkenIn is the same as Facebook at all, but then I'd only use Facebook for personal stuff and only my friends would see it. LinkedIn is supposed to be a professional network, so commenting on people's attractiveness is just not on, and I think it's reasonable to expect those standards. The same as the differenence between someone commenting on your looks in a bar on a night out, and someone commenting on your looks at your industry's annual conference. I'd be far more unimpressed with the latter.

I could - you've identified one of the many tightropes that women need to walk on.

Women are given the message from day one that their appearance matters. Little girls are complimented all the time on their appearance, far more than boys are. As they grow up they see constant ads about make up, hair dye, wrinkle cream etc etc all with the very unsubtle message that as a woman you should care about these things, you shouldn't 'let yourself go.' Women are made to feel vain and self obsessed if they do worry about their appearance but are branded as frumpy if they do not. They simply can't win.

So the fact that you deliberately choose your best photo to post on facebook is not surprising at all and you are by no means failing as a feminist.

If a stranger tells your you're attractive they are praising your for fitting their expectations. They are not telling you they like you as a person, they are saying thank you for fulfilling the criteria I have set for you in order to acceptable. It is not a compliment - it is merely stating that you have passed their test and giving you a pat on the head for it.

Google 'women short hair men'- that alone will give you insight into the rhetoric around women and attractiveness.

I have to be honest, it wasn't just FB for me. I work in MH and in the past when I worked on MH units which had a 'welcome, these people are your care teams' board so new service users admitted knew people who the people caring for them were - I annoyed ward photographers by making them take numerous photos till I was happy with one.

The service users didn't give a shit - they liked me because I was good at my job, attentive, caring, experienced and friendly within a professional framework but it mattered to me for some reason. The people (service users) don't didn't give a shit, they would have asked for me to talk to/escort them on outside visits etc and it sounds weird but I think we all - as human beings see beauty in who we like and feel safe with. So i'd always hear ' you're beautiful' from service users. And I never wanted that and it would be inappropriate professionally to accept that but I know It's because as a society we find beauty in what/who makes us feel safe or happy?. And me wanting an attractive picture on the board wasn't because I wanted service users to like it, I just didn't want to look shit.

How many of us thought our Mums/primary carers were beautiful even if they didn't meet the usual society standard?.

FFS. I think I may have just answered a question about why we have so many different opinions in society about what is attractive or beautiful!.

But why do I want to be viewed as attractive but not want it based on physical appearence?.

It IS though isn't it?. I've known many wonderful men that I can imagine myself being in a relationship with but can't imagine fancying enough to have sex with.

So physical appearence must play a part?. But I don't want to be judged on my physical appearence.

Argh!

"And me wanting an attractive picture on the board wasn't because I wanted service users to like it, I just didn't want to look shit."

I think it is because, without really thinking about it, you know that people will judge you on how you look, whatever happens. And as unfair as it is, people always judge those who look attractive more positively than those who don't.

And sometimes you just feel more confident. Partly because we are told from the early stages of life that you are worthy if you are attractive, and partly because it's just a ritual.

My old company used to have photos on our website, and I hated it, I dodged the photographer for ages before they pinned me down. I'm not photogenic. I didn't want to be on the website. But then I wanted to pick a flattering photo. Partly because I knew it was presenting myself to the world and I know that people go around making judgements on people's looks. Some of my friends (male, never female curiously) openly admit to googling applicants for jobs they are recruiting for "to look for the hot ones to interview". It's really hard to protect yourself from this game while at the same time try to point out how unfair it is.

I don't know, I really struggle with these thoughts too Icould..., I've spent much time and money trying to figure out the self-image and self esteem conundrum!

I think photos are a massive problem. I really, really hate photos of me. I'm not particularly shy, and I'm not vain, but there's something about a photo that makes me uncomfortable. It's just how I look, with none of my personality. And I prefer me with my personality tbh.

Maybe it is the judgement thing. I'm reasonably confident that when people meet me they quite like me (in general) but I worry that when all they have to go on is how I look then I won't make a good impression.

And maybe that's the thing with LinkedIn. It's supposed to be about your professional capabilities, with photos to help you recognise people, but this man made it all about the woman's looks. He reduced her to just a her appearance, ignoring her achievements and potential.

I think the test of this is: he might have complimented a male colleague on the quality of photography, but I don't think he would use the word "stunning" to describe a photo of a man. So....yup, sexist.

Of course she put up a good photo of herself. Anyone would. Men trying to impress other men on LinkdIn would put up a good photo of themselves in preference to one making them look like shit. Her hair, makeup and clothes (what you can see of the jacket) all look professional, not like she is angling for "wot a stunna" thoughts and comments.

I think the test of this is: he might have complimented a male colleague on the quality of photography, but I don't think he would use the word "stunning" to describe a photo of a man. So....yup, sexist.

Presumably he is heterosexual and so is unlikely to have those sorts of aesthetic responses to men. But of course, we can only speculate on what we suspect he would or wouldn't do. Don't think there is sufficient evidence to support her responding accusations of sexism and misogyny. She perhaps should have just stuck to calling it inappropriate and offensive.