Charlotte Proudman

[JeanSeberg]

www.theguardian.com/law/2015/sep/08/charlotte-proudman-alexander-carter-silk-linkedin-photo-comment-law-firms

Good for her.

Apparently the guy wrote the following on Facebook last year on seeing a picture of his daughter working out in the gym:

'Whilst I should not encourage lascivious comments about my daughter ... Yeee gods she is hot!!'

His daughter FFS. He sounds like the sort of creep you would want to take a shower after shaking his hand??..

Not sure where the random question marks came from there. I definitely wasn't suggesting it was a question.

NiNoKuni
As an isolated incident, in a vacuum, you may have had a point. In a patriarchal society where women's appearances are policed, commented on above all other aspects (e.g. politicians' shoes), rated out of ten for fuckability and all the other shitty little things, it's not just 'not agreeing' or 'not liking' some behaviour. It's yet another example of men thinking they have the right to say these things to women, completely uninvited. It betrays their own ridiculous thought patterns that a) women's purpose is predominantly decorative and b) men have the right to treat them as such. This is the very basis of objectifying women. It is treating women as not full human beings. That's the contempt.

Which is all great-sounding but you cannot deduce that an individual man thinks like this just from the fact that he complimented a woman's appearance.

I mentioned above that I have been known to do this for Angelina. If I'd ever met her in all likelihood I would say nothing, but let's say that in a fit of over-enthusiasm I had had said something about how pretty I thought she was, while it might suit a feminist agenda to represent this as me demonstrating my misogynistic contempt for her and women generally, and my desire to exerciser power over her and deny her full human status and so on and so forth, that just would not be a fair and accurate representation.

You could say that I needed to learn to keep my aesthetic thoughts to myself however, but the rest of the deductions about what I think would be insufficiently evidenced at this stage.

JAPAB...

Actually, no. I don't believe you don't understand the points already made and suspect this is the Devil's Advocate Dance (12in remix).

Change the record, hmm?

Not sure where the random question marks came from there

I've noticed that -there's a lot of them about.

YonicScrewdriver, one can understand what someone else is saying without agreeing with it. And no devil's advocacy here. I actually do believe it is possible for a man to compliment appearance and in his mind he just wants to say something nice that he hopes will make the recipient feel flattered, or otherwise have something in his mind that is not being represented accurately by some of the things being imputed in this thread. Hence my belief in the need for more information before the charges are made.

I know, I don't have the Testicles of Objectivity. Just a lifetime of being a woman on the receiving end of men's masculinist agendas, which obviously doesn't count.

I mean, how much 'evidence' do you need to pronounce someone or someone's actions misogynistic? Do they have to wear a little badge? Shout 'I hate women' before every sentence?

His behaviour is, to me, indicative of certain unpleasant underlying preconceptions about women and their value to him. I don't have a signed confession by him that he thinks all women are sluts, no. Misogynists don't tend to announce it explicitly IME. You have to read it from their words and actions.

And I can see a difference between telling a celebrity you think they're pretty in a social situation of some kind, and responding to a business connection invitation with what may as well have been 'hurhur phwoar'. It wasn't a compliment, it was a power play. A compliment is designed to make someone feel nice about themselves. A power play is designed to put someone else in their place, which is inevitably below the power player. By reducing a woman to her looks in a business situation, she is put in the 'decorative/fuckable' box, which is below the 'full human' or even 'equal-footing business contact' box.

I suspect, however, I may as well be talking to myself here. Not having sufficient evidence and all, and merely sounding great

I actually do believe it is possible for a man to compliment appearance and in his mind he just wants to say something nice that he hopes will make the recipient feel flattered, or otherwise have something in his mind that is not being represented accurately by some of the things being imputed in this thread.

We're endlessly aware of your beliefs around this subject. You had, what I believe in the vernacular is called your arse handed to you on a couple of threads about it before. Just because you believe it's possible it doesn't mean that it is, what it does mean is that all the women you meet are a bit creeped out by you. HTH

Various posters on different threads have said that it was all well and good for her to send him the reply she did, but she shouldn't have plastered it over Twitter. I think she's fantastic for doing just that because if she'd just left it between them then a) she would only have challenged the behaviour of a single man and b) he would have been able to just shrug it off as a silly woman being silly.

Except, of course, the media and indeed public reaction has touted the latter view as the widely accepted one. But I comfort myself by thinking that nothing changes if people don't speak out...

SAKTURA - reference to "The old white guy " could be construed as agist and racist by an overly sensitive old white guy.

Did you actually read sakura's post. He had all the power in that relationship. He is in the dominant class. Sakura used the word old to demonstrate that he had power over because of age (she was young) and white because being a white bloke is top of the food chain. Nobody is discriminating against him. What is someone like that making comments like those, doing teaching a human rights course. But yeah his feelings may be hurt. That's the important thing.

And there is no such thing as reverse racism. HTH.

YY Hovis.

Women have always been nervous about challenging sexism.

That should really have said Women have understandably always been nervous of challenging sexism. They know what comes with the territory.

Aah you took it to mean that. Cool!

Thank Christ I've found this thread. It's like breathing oxygen ofter being stifled for days.

I'm astounded at the number of women queuing up to be his apologist and argue that even if he was in the wrong she should have admonished him in private.

I've actually had friends explain he isn't sexist because a) he's a good lawyer b) he has female clients (including Elle McPherson!) c) he has female colleagues who are junior to him and d) he has a daughter. I mean W the actual F?!

One person even rehashed his photography excuse and tried to convince me it must be the honest explanation and it was me and Proudman with the improper thoughts.

I actually bloody despair at the society my daughters are growing up into.

JAPAB

"I think you are on a sticky wicket deducing sexism from the fact alone that a heterosexual man would describe a woman as stunning but not a man. ...Assuming that the speculation made by another poster that he would not have described a man as stunning is correct, this is not enough "evidence"."

It's not from that fact "alone" as you are well aware. It's from the context in which that comment is made. He would not have described a man as stunning in probably any that context. And yes, it IS enough evidence.

I am well aware you have had this notion handed to you time and again though.

PlaysWellWithOthers
Just because you believe it's possible it doesn't mean that it is, what it does mean is that all the women you meet are a bit creeped out by you. HTH

If these woman feel creeped out because a man says that a man can pay a compliment to a woman without some of the specific agendas and attitudes being assumed by some in this thread, then they hide it from me very well.

LuisCarol
Even if we keep the Lindekin context at the forefront of our minds, your reasoning appears to be that the sexism resides in the fact that a man tells a woman he thinks her stunning but would (probably) not say this to a man (in the same context).

If he is heterosexual he might be unlikely to actually find a man stunning, as opposed to having equal responses to men and women but choosing to only inform someone if they are of one sex, which would indeed point to sexism on his part.

Perhaps he should just pick some man and lie that he finds him something that he doesn't actually find him, being heterosexual and all, in order to reduce the charges to just "inappropriate" and "unprofessional" but get off the "sexist" one, on this reasoning.

If he wanted to pay her a compliment he could have mentioned something about her accomplishments, such as being a barrister at the age of 27. Instead he compliments her on her looks. It is the height of unprofessionalism.

I do not understand women who are excusing his behaviour. It is unacceptable and I can only assume those women are 100% reliant on men bringing home a good income. I'm so happy I don't live in the UK. The sexism that prevails is shocking and would not be tolerated here in NYC. I worked for one of the top investment banks and it was an American male who promoted me and moved me to the US. It was a Canadian man who helped me move to another bank and get into an excellent position. While they all had wives who stayed home, it was interesting talking to the Canadian who said he was trying to create opportunities for women as he has 3 daughters who are exceptionally talented and just as able to succeed in the workplace as any man.

It was in England that a slimy man put his hand up my skirt on the trading floor. When I whacked his hand with the back of the phone I was holding and broke the phone (I swear the phone was weakened due to excessive slamming by others before me), I had plenty of women working on the floor tell me I shouldn't be reacting like that. I had the head of trading (a Swiss guy) who sat me down and asked what happened. When I told him he apologized and said I needed to understand the workplace and said how I needed to control myself! It was an American male who set up my transfer and later told me he loved the fact I was able to nail the pervert. Apparently he had been doing it for years to the young girls. What Carter Silk did to Ms Proudman was no different. His communication was sleazy and totally inappropriate.

NoNi Totally agree with you on the power play. That is exactly what he was doing and she was totally right to challenge it. My faith in MN has been severely weakened reading through the other thread. I can't help but think of those women as being SAHPs or working very PT so they can 'be there for their children' rather than having their OH find their balls and coparent.

Absolutely Want - I've never seen business people in a business context who don't know each other compliment each other on their looks. What they might use as a compliment is 'I read your book on X and thought it was amazing' or 'I heard about your X project, what stunning results you got'. The very fact he brought looks into it at all makes it sexist/misogynistic, regardless of sexuality stuff.

And ew to the man on the trading floor! Why is it men are never expected to control themselves? Poor dears, such slaves to their hormones.

Buffy

"I can't help but think of those women as being SAHPs or working very PT s"

No, I think it's a mix of working, not working, mothers, grandmothers and child-free women.