Why strip clubs are so wrong

[bodenbiscuit]

A male friend of mine is annoying me because he apparently wants me to go to a strip club with him.

I am very surprised at him because he's a cerebral and generally decent person. I thought better of him to be honest.

I said to him that strip clubs objectify women the same way that prostituion does and he said they are a form of art - I mean seriously what disingenuous bolleaux.

Now he is saying that I'm not being mature about it because I won't change my mind. Apparently the men are the ones being exploited (eye roll) oh that old chestnut.

So how do those of you more eloquent than I argue your point on this one?

Thank you for taking the trouble to reply, sausageeggbacon.

What is VAW?

I do not think this issue' is all about stripper, or all about the punters, I think it is all about all of us. I can't stop women taking their clothes off for money, but I find it offensive and I do not think it contributes to the understanding that women are of equal value and worth in society as men, quite the opposite.

I wonder if I can consider the place of the customer without it being 'erotic'! I would hope so.

Thanks silage for posting that link. I got about half way through scan reading it and then felt I had enough of hearing how incredibly vile some men can be to some women (and knowing it is only the tip of the ice berg). Wondering how anyone can defend this sad, sad trade.

VAW on this board generally means violence against women, IG

On a slightly different note, it's always interesting to see people defending things they'd never do or be expected to do, while playing down the realities of that thing as described by the people who have done it. I often wonder what the vested interest is.

Violence Against Women.

I am not about trying to change people's beliefs everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want. I only interested in when people "quote" reports or research. The pro stripping blog has gone through every report produced and has rebutted them all as far as I know. If there is something that has been missed then I will be interested. In terms of my beliefs I can only go on my own experiences.

As to vested interest my neighbour is a dancer as I have stated a few time before over the years. I listened to what she had to say and found it compelling.

Yes I consider Holsopple valid because American prostitution and British prostitution have both been happening for decades is the same way. Surely an industry expert such as you knows that Spearmint Rhino has strip clubs in both the US and the UK, so how do you think US strip clubs differ from UK strip clubs?

I think you somehow missed Basic Human Decency 101 if you think making women paint their faces and dance on stage for pennies is good for women, men, communities, or anyone but pimps.

On top of that, you missed the Canadian visa scheme that trafficked several hundred Romanian young women into Canadian strip clubs. Do you think strip club owners in Canada had import hundreds of strippers from ROMANIA because millions of North American women are too prudish, too ugly, or too financially stupid to know how much they can make for an hour of prostituting themselves in strip clubs?

sisyphe.org/spip.php?article1380

"...data from the Canadian Ministry of immigration report that 25 Rumanian strippers landed in the country in 2001, 216 others in 2002 and 552 in 2003."

And you probably missed this too:

www4.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/28112008/n1.shtml

"But Mary Taylor, the founder and director of the Exotic Dancers Association of Canada, says the argument that there aren’t enough homegrown strippers to fill the demand simply isn’t true.

'There’s not a shortage of dancers in Canada,” she says. “There’s a shortage of dancers in Canada willing to put up with the conditions of strip clubs here.'

With 21 years of experience in the industry as a dancer and an advocate, she says she’s seen it all in terms of poor working conditions — including unfair contracts, pressure to perform sexual acts on clients, and unreasonable fines."

As to vested interest my neighbour is a dancer

This probably makes me sound a terrible snob but I really don't like describing strippers and lap dancers as " dancers". They are not dancers. You cannot compare what they do with what a real dancer in a ballet or a contemporary dance troupe does.

^In terms of my beliefs I can only go on my own experiences.

I don't doubt that for one minute.

Well as UK strip venues have no physical contact and dancers have rules about seeing customers outside the basics in Holsopple are so different anyone looking at the UK would question just how the if there is any common ground on the claims made in Holsopple. We are not talking about prostitution but a legal profession that has been stigmatised by those on a moral crusade. But conjoining the two makes it easy to use the same stigmatising language as an enabler to dehumanise dancers and turn them into objects.

Interesting about trafficking as in both Pentameter 1 and 2 in the UK no dancers or strip venues were brought up on charges. The dancers themselves are checked by the venue and remember the council has the right to check on every dancer. So it may have happened in Canada and I am really upset that anyone would traffick anyone. But the UK all the dancers are there by choice and given the position with the councils they are there legally.

ALass according to a professor of dance Judith Lynne Hanna what they do is dancing. I think the professor is in a better place to judge. Sorry if taking her point of view upsets you.

Thanks Any for the vote of confidence it is much appreciated.

Okay the boys are arguing over the football... time to get back to normality. See everyone tomorrow.

OP your friend's views and insults to you because you wouldn't comply are knobbish and I understand why you think less of him. Presume "cerebral" is your phrase for him and not his but IME some of the most knobbish men cultivate a "clever" vibe!

Indeed, the internet is fucking full of them.

But the UK all the dancers are there by choice

What's your evidence for this? That is such a ridiculous statement. In fact, it is good evidence that you are not very good at assessing evidence.

As to vested interest my neighbour is a dancer

Yes, yes, you've told us many time about your sexy cool neighbour. I bet she thinks you're so cool for taking up her noble cause on MN and the amount of time and effort you've invested in it.

I think sausage's "neighbour" would do well to perform a sweep of her house. And never hang her smalls on the washing line.

Having a neighbour who is part of the sex trade isn't a vested interest, it's merely having a neighbour in the sex trade. Sorry if my knowledge offends you, as it obviously does.

according to a professor of dance Judith Lynne Hanna what they do is dancing. I think the professor is in a better place to judge. Sorry if taking her point of view upsets you.

I've looked her up. She argues that lapdancing and stripping is an art form in the face of the American Christian right's assertions of immorality and their attempts to ban it. She's just one anthropologist, I'm not sure she warrants these repeated appeals to authority. I don't think there's anything approaching an academic consensus on the question, is there? Or is the BDA doing a pole dancing course now?

"But conjoining the two makes it easy to use the same stigmatising language as an enabler to dehumanise dancers and turn them into objects."

Did you just imply that by considering stripping a part of sex work and the sex industry I am turning women into objects?

The men who go to strip clubs and constantly solicit strippers for paid sex are the ones who view strippers as prostitutes.

I must say, you make a great case for why men's demand for prostitution should be made illegal when you insist that men will get away with treating women as sexually submissive playthings so long as other men keep it legal for them to do so.

I find your evasion of answering why you think hundreds of Romanian young women were legally trafficked into Canadian strip clubs very illuminating.

I also find the evasion of the 3% question interesting. Ah well.

ALass according to a professor of dance Judith Lynne Hanna what they do is dancing. I think the professor is in a better place to judge. Sorry if taking her point of view upsets you

You are free to share her view if you like. I don't have an academic qualification in relation to dance - I have in the space of my 50 odd years been at hundreds of dance performances of all types. In my view stripping is not dance. I doubt say the Royal Ballet school or Nederlands Dans Theatre are teaching stripping.

My neighbour is a shot blaster; I haven't felt the need to investigate the working conditions for such workers in the UK and worldwide or ask about all the different paint pellets he uses

I think Sausage's interest goes way beyond casual neighbourly relations and if you were my neighbour I would be feeling a bit freaked out by you. That is, of course, your only experience in this industry is courtesy of this one woman and a bit of obsessive reading on the internet.

But conjoining the two makes it easy to use the same stigmatising language as an enabler to dehumanise dancers and turn them into objects.

Ha bloody ha.

It is not those who object to women being paid to strip off and be leered at who are turning women into objects, it is those who are paying money to leer at naked women. I am not sure this needs saying really..... but obviously it does.

I think there is some selective imagination going on, does it seem like dancers are dancing for someone they want to dance for? Imagine if, instead of someone a woman may wish to get naked for, the voyeurs are the people you would least likely want to get naked for. Whoever that may be. Now imagine getting naked, to music, and feeling vulnerable and maybe having had negative experiences with the opposite sex you feel actually afraid, but you can't look afraid, you have to look sexy. No, I am not a stripper. I have no idea if my 'guesses' are right or not. Maybe it is nothing like that, maybe it is all just fun, oh no, because that would be mad!

I do not think this issue' is all about stripper, or all about the punters, I think it is all about all of us. I can't stop women taking their clothes off for money, but I find it offensive and I do not think it contributes to the understanding that women are of equal value and worth in society as men, quite the opposite

That for me is all that needs to be said.

Stripping is not dancing. We all know that no matter how one professor of anthropology twists it.

Stripping is sex work - sex work is not just a job like any other.

Well as I said I am not here to try and change beliefs all I am interested is the facts as best I can ascertain. Snide remarks about me and my views is like water of a duck's back.

Why do I believe that Hanna is a worthwhile expert? If you consider the amount she has done over the years and her involvement in dance I would consider her an expert, if there is an expert witness that claims it is dance i would like to read their work.

As to why I believe dancers are there by choice there are 3 reasons. First is obviously anecdotal but you all know that one. The second is could an organisation like the East London Strippers Collective form if dancers had no choice. I would suggest you go read their objectives to improve the conditions for dancers and take away some of the power from the club owners which I am sure is something we could all get behind, but without just closing clubs. And finally and probably key to my view on choice is the research by Leeds University and especially the how do dancers feel about their work, no choice is made in a vacuum but that can be said about any work. If people have better sources disproven this that hasn't already been disproved I would be happy to read it.

So if people want to close clubs it seems to be more like a moral crusade than feminism. Second wave was all about freedom to do what we want with our bodies and yet now feminism wants to police what women do when they are exercising free choice? The right wing christians will be so pleased.

ffs typing on the phone is a nightmare

Claims it isn't dance is what I meant.

I'm utterly amazed that someone could think that PTSD only affects war veterans.

Meanwhile ... some of my best friends are 'dancers'.