Misleading campaign trying to con the UK about the horrific level of domestic violence committed by men against women

[BigChocFrenzy]

A dadsnet thread came up last night on active, asking us to sign a petition to the Royal Borough of Greenwich that they change their poster against domestic violence "Dad's have to change."

The thread claims FALSELY that "women perpetrate physical and emotional abuse at comparable rates to men"

This campaign is pushed by the usual suspects of F4J and Torygraph, part of a broader aim to downplay male violence against women. It is conning an increasing number of people, especially those inclined anyway to make excuses for men.

Karen Smith has an excellent blog analysing statistics to show domestic violence is overwhelmingly MALE:
(CPS stats over 5 years) 93.4% of those convicted were MALE.

Female victims are far more likely to suffer violence, to suffer more repeated incidents, to suffer worse injury.
Contrary to popular myth, men are MORE likely to report an incident and to continue with prosecution.

Home Office statistics for England & Wales show on average per year:
. 100 women killed by past or present male partners
. 10 men also killed by MALE partners
. 20 men killed by female partners

So, 20 female killers for every 110 male killers.

See also the very sad Counting Dead Women

Needs the middle ground, between can and can't control, is varying degrees of proficiency.

I didn't get the impression that anyone on this thread was arguing 'all men are . . .' anything. It's possible to observe statistics without extrapolating that means 'this is that' or 'all men are anything'.

I also don't understand how we have reached an assumption that we are 'disregarding male feelings'. Not all men are upset by the campaign so it seems odd to assume the campaign is hurting 'male' feelings rather than the campaign is hurting the feelings of some people. I don't think gender is integral to how people have responded to the campaign. Men and boys are victims of DV by men too.

Also, although the wording on the poster is aimed at those who commit DV, as a DC who grew up in a home with DV, I would have absolutely welcomed such a poster campaign because it would have validated my belief that what was happening at home was wrong.

Why not a more gender neutral campaign, then, APlace?

The disregarding male feelings was brought up in response to the 'special snowflake', 'hurt feelings' and 'meh' comments with regard to men.

As already stated, those comments were not aimed at men, as in all men. They were aimed at the men who carry out DV. Can you not see the difference?

The disregarding male feelings was brought up in response to the 'special snowflake', 'hurt feelings' and 'meh' comments with regard to men.

Disingenuous.

It was in reaction to VIOLENT men. You appear to think that all men are like this, we know they aren't. Abusive men seem to be all sad inside about the campaign. But then, drink drivers were all sad inside about campaigns against drink driving, they still stopped.

Please try and stick to what people are actually saying, rather than what you want them to be saying, thanks.

And I repeat: meh to the hurt feeling of violent men. I reserve my sympathy for the women and children, and other men they are hurting.

Interesting to see the difference between the Dadsnet thread and this thread.

I would not advocate totally disregarding anyone's feelings, no matter what horrific crimes they have committed. Their feelings are probably integral to the whole sorry mess in society. Not that they are justifiable or warranted but because they are dysfunctionally affecting themselves and others.

The whole conversation has referred to men and male abusers, masculinity and maleness on numerous occasions. If the campaign focuses on men abusing, and the thread title cites statistics that state most violent abuse is carried out by men, men as a group cannot really be excluded from being discussed.

Ostracism and punishment has worked to reduce racism and homophobia. It has at least made them socially unacceptable in most circles.

Or should we go back to not hurting the feelings of racists and queer-bashers ? There is NO evidence this works.

Campaigns against violence against women will help reduce it.
Nothing will totally eradicate violence, but we should do what we can.

Why not a more gender neutral campaign? because the campaign (having limited resources) has targeted the area where they feel it will have most impact. And they have chosen a message that statistics say is representative. Trying to make a campaign be all things to all people is impossible.

I also think the poster deliberately showed a male and female victim of abuse. The DC is obviously a boy. If some men choose to identify with the male abuser rather than the male victim then that should prompt some interesting questions for them as individuals. And I think prompting people to think and opening debate is exactly the purpose of such posters.

I would not advocate totally disregarding anyone's feelings, no matter what horrific crimes they have committed.

I wouldn't either, except when it comes to the horrific crimes they have committed. Their feelings about pretty much anything else should be regarded, their beliefs and feelings about their violence are shit and should be regarded as such.

Their feelings are probably integral to the whole sorry mess in society.

No, their choices are why they are violent. They choose to be violent. It is a choice. How they feel about it is immaterial, and I'm a tad more concerned about their victims feelings really.

This one poster in a series of posters depicts a man in a heterosexual marriage/relationship scaring the shit out of his child with his rage, and you really want everyone to feel all the sads for his feelings? Really?

Capsicum, speed awareness campaigns typically don't show an 85 year old woman doing the crime. Nor do drink driving campaigns. To reach the majority of perpetrators, the central figure must be relatable

Similar in the recent Samaritans campaign which showed a very "blue collar" Middle Aged man, presumably because this is a vulnerable group who the Samaritans want to use the service more.

I'm not sure why advertising being targeted is controversial.

Well we have different views. I don't belittle domestic violence or any other violent crimes. I do believe supporting victims is vitally important.

However I think people's distorted perceptions can compromise the choices they make. Understanding how this can occur rather than simply pointing the wrongness of violent crime (do not most people know it is wrong?), I think should be prioritised.

We know how and why it occurs capsium, the people who do it chooce to do so. Think we've all pointed that out a fair few times, maybe you only skim read posts?

I'm not entirely sure where you think people have belittled DV either? Can you show me where that's happened?

And no, it seems that a hell of a lot of men DON'T know that this is wrong.... all sorts of people have gone on the record saying that women, if "acting up" "need" a slap. It's been described as "love taps", there are whole websites dedicated to "disciplining your wife".

I wonder if we're speaking different languages here, because it looks from here like you're trying to find excuses for men who choose violence. And that's never a good look really.

Not excuses, reasons. The only violent crimes I have known of, concerning people I knew, occurred in situations where substance abuse and mental illness was apparent. Two were suffering delusions, one case included hallucinations, two cases involved substance abuse. So choice I believe was compromised IME.

capsium organisations that work in the DV field with abusers tend to start from a point that you have to name, recognise and take responsibility for what happened. Only then can abusers start to disentangle their skewed value system and the ideas which underpin their decision to abuse.

There's probably two relevant points here. (1) recognition that it is abuse comes first (2) it's about values and ideas - emotions are not at the base of abusive situations. It's a bit like saying rape is about sex. It's not - it's about power and control. DV isn't about emotion; challenging DV isn't about emotion - it's about a value system and a set of ideas that say being abusive is ok.

So, despite your feeling that understanding how it can occur should be prioritised over pointing out the wrongness of the crime - the people who work in this field would disagree. Because your assumption that most people know it is wrong is not one shared by abusers. They have belief systems that justify why it's ok. Getting them to recognise it's wrong is the first, essential step.

So a mental breakdown and associated very violent acts (including DV) is about values and ideas? Emotions and how not to be overwhelmed by them has never had any part in domestic violence? I do not believe that is entirely true. I am not saying values and ideas have no part to play, what I am saying is sometimes (and going from the people I knew), emotions most certainly do have a part to play.

Capsium you really seem to believe that violent men cannot help themselves, poor dears, they're all mentally ill. Yes they are, by the current definition of that term (not sure I wouldn't prefer emotionally deranged myself, since that's what it is really all about). Thing is, a lot of women are mentally ill too. They become mentally ill, as have the men, after being put through abusive circumstances. You want to talk to those of us who've been brought up in dysfunctional families, we end up usually with a similar spectrum of woes. Yet women do not choose to extend their 'mental illness' as violence. Men do choose to do that. The difference is that men feel entitled to take out their woes on others. I can remember feeling as if I was about to lose control and do the same, I viewed it as a problem. Men, for some reason, don't see themselves as the problem in the same way.

Much mental illness, perhaps all - I'm not a specialist - is not an absolute, it is caused by something and it can be undone and untangled.

I'm not saying this very well, sorry.

However I think people's distorted perceptions can compromise the choices they make. Understanding how this can occur rather than simply pointing the wrongness of violent crime (do not most people know it is wrong?), I think should be prioritised

A huge problem is most people don't really care. There is always an excuse and rarely do people minimising and justifying abuse get challenged in the comunity.

Whilst most people do know it's wrong a lot of those same people collude with it, excuse it,justify it, minimise it and often go full on into making a point about how it does not make someone a bad person or a bad father or they victim blame.

People are violent because (with the exclusion of limited capacity medical conditions) they choose to be.

There is a fair bit of hope for lowering the risk of reoffending for perpetrators who see it for what it is,do not excuse it and who get challenged for it.

Some women do extend their mental illness as violence. Secure units are full of them.

Capsicum, you obviously know some troubled individuals. Were they generally violent towards friends, male relatives, colleagues etc as well?

Not excuses, reasons. The only violent crimes I have known of, concerning people I knew, occurred in situations where substance abuse and mental illness was apparent.

That is an extremely narrow experience from which to derive extremely broad views.

Treading dangerously close to saying domestic abuse is a anger management problem there.

It's not, it's a power and control issue

And again... and again... and again...

2 examples out of how many? And, let me just take up your point that a person who suffers with delusions had their choices impaired... are you suggesting that people who suffer with delusions and aren't violent are in some way super human, or do you think that they make the choice not to be violent? Do you think that the many, many people who misuse substances and aren't violent are super human, or do you think they make the choice not to be violent?

Suggesting that people who suffer from MH problems in some way lack the ability to choose is really offensive by the way. That belief has lead to some really serious human rights abuses against people with serious MH problems.

Making excuses for men's violence is as old as time. It's time the record got changed now, for all our sakes.

Oh god....and now it's women do it toooooooooo

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