Misleading campaign trying to con the UK about the horrific level of domestic violence committed by men against women

[BigChocFrenzy]

A dadsnet thread came up last night on active, asking us to sign a petition to the Royal Borough of Greenwich that they change their poster against domestic violence "Dad's have to change."

The thread claims FALSELY that "women perpetrate physical and emotional abuse at comparable rates to men"

This campaign is pushed by the usual suspects of F4J and Torygraph, part of a broader aim to downplay male violence against women. It is conning an increasing number of people, especially those inclined anyway to make excuses for men.

Karen Smith has an excellent blog analysing statistics to show domestic violence is overwhelmingly MALE:
(CPS stats over 5 years) 93.4% of those convicted were MALE.

Female victims are far more likely to suffer violence, to suffer more repeated incidents, to suffer worse injury.
Contrary to popular myth, men are MORE likely to report an incident and to continue with prosecution.

Home Office statistics for England & Wales show on average per year:
. 100 women killed by past or present male partners
. 10 men also killed by MALE partners
. 20 men killed by female partners

So, 20 female killers for every 110 male killers.

See also the very sad Counting Dead Women

I never said mentally ill people can never help themselves. For some it is extremely difficult, though, there are some terrifying and debilitating conditions. If people are to get over any illness they have to really help themselves eventually. Some just don't know how or where to start.

Play that comment was said in response to what Lightening said, below, not in an attempt to derail,

"Yet women do not choose to extend their 'mental illness' as violence. Men do choose to do that. The difference is that men feel entitled to take out their woes on others"

I think this is widely, dangerously and quite obviously inaccurate.

I don't. And the evidence would bear me out.

What I do think is dangerous is trying to find reasons to exhonerate men from their violence. Which is what you have done since your first post.

So far, so status quo.

Suggesting that people who suffer from MH problems in some way lack the ability to choose is really offensive by the way. That belief has lead to some really serious human rights abuses against people with serious MH problems.

I think not recognising that people suffering from delusions and halluncinations can have their choices impaired, since their perception of reality is altered, the basis from which decisions are made, is offensive. This has lead to 'blaming' and in effect punishing people for their illness, a serious human rights abuse in itself...

BigChoc I concur with all you have written.

However I have a small issue that maybe easily cleared up.

In your op you quoted from the other site "women perpetrate physical and emotional abuse at comparable rates to men"

But then it seems that nearly all subsequent discussion focussed upon physical abuse and violence.

Are there any statistics on emotional abuse? I would have thought these were much more difficult to record. Emotional abuse does not need to involve violence, just abuse.

"Play that comment was said in response to what Lightening said, below, not in an attempt to derail,

"Yet women do not choose to extend their 'mental illness' as violence. Men do choose to do that. The difference is that men feel entitled to take out their woes on others"

I think this is widely, dangerously and quite obviously inaccurate."

Ok it was a generalisation, but a reasonable one. Are you now disputing the op (true) statement that violence is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men?

Excellent Capsium, you've decided that everyone with serious MH problems is absolved of all blame for their choice to be violent.

I'll pass that one on to everyone I worked with. If nothing else, it'll make them chuckle...

Men and women both suffer MH, stress, poverty.
It is men who overwhelmingly express anger and frustration as violence.

In the 1960s, people openly shouted racial insults. Now such behaviour is despised and is a criminal offence, hence much more rare.
Any racist behaviour at work is a sacking offence.

We didn't give psychotherapy to racists or consider their feelings, just made it socially unacceptable and punished those who broke the law.

"This has lead to 'blaming' and in effect punishing people for their illness, a serious human rights abuse in itself..."

There's a difference between responsibility and blame... I agree blame and punishment models are unhelpful, but accepting responsibilty is an essential first step for accepting help. As someone already said upthread I think.

Add message | Report | Message poster YonicScrewdriver Wed 02-Sep-15 18:35:26
Capsicum, you obviously know some troubled individuals. Were they generally violent towards friends, male relatives, colleagues etc as well?

It varied. One was in a profession with a significant amount of responsibility, still is as far as I know. He was supported through work I think eventually. One was just a student, sensitive and intelligent. I have known very troubled women too. I know several professionals who work directly managing the mental illness of people with who have committed serious crimes.

It is men who overwhelmingly express anger and frustration as violence.

But what about those people who do not expess their anger and frustration as violence?

Are they not abusers as well?

Um... what level of anger and frustration? Is no one ever to be allowed to express their feelings, do we all have to give each other sweet sugary false smiles all the time? I might be going to the other extreme?

But responsibility can only be accepted if a person knows how to respond correctly. Some people genuinely don't. Or their sense of reality is so screwed their (wrong) response seems correct.

PartialDerivative My OP quoted directly from the dadsnet thread "women perpetrate physical and emotional abuse at comparable rates to men"

We've agreed (most of us !) that the claim is completely false wrt physical abuse,
I can't find reliable statistics for EA and I totally agree with you how tough it would be to record. So, their claim about the relative levels for that is unproven, imo.

Hello again partial.

Capisum, you mentioned it varied but I wasn't clear if that meant any of those DV perpetrators were more generally violent?

Many racists and homophobes don't think they are wrong. They may not accept responsibility.
We still punish them when they break the law.

"But responsibility can only be accepted if a person knows how to respond correctly. Some people genuinely don't. Or their sense of reality is so screwed their (wrong) response seems correct."

Ye-es... that's another way of saying they're mentally ill... which still equally applies to men and women, yet men are still overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violence. There's something else going on there as a cause, it seems to me.

Some were, some weren't, Yonic.

Do you think the majority of DV perpetrators are mentally disordered to the extent they don't know that violence is wrong and inflict it on anyone they are in contact with at the wrong moment?

Possibly, Lightening but tbh I suspect there would be as many similarities and differences between one violent man compared to one violent woman, as one violent man to one violent man.

If it were simple it might well have been solved by now.

I don't know about the majority Yonic, only those I have had experience of. However I think the home can be a place where mentally vulnerable people might eventually crack because there is less social pressure to hold it together.

^ those would be people who knew they were wrong but not what to do.

In the case of people with more serious delusions, these may be picked up more at home, either because they do not like going out or people ignore / dismiss what is going on in public places.

But you understand that these campaigns are not based on your experience, where all the people you know committed DV had other problems?

Come to that, you may know other people who committed DV without your awareness.

Accepted, Yonic but I can only speak from experience, the same as anyone on this thread. Why? Are my experiences less valid than other people's?

If anyone can only speak from experience, that's government (as an entity) fucked then.

You are objecting to this campaign. This campaign is based on statistics, on the accumulation of many people's experience. Any one of us saying "here's my experience" is not relevant to the validity of the campaign, though it may be interesting in other ways.