Misleading campaign trying to con the UK about the horrific level of domestic violence committed by men against women

[BigChocFrenzy]

A dadsnet thread came up last night on active, asking us to sign a petition to the Royal Borough of Greenwich that they change their poster against domestic violence "Dad's have to change."

The thread claims FALSELY that "women perpetrate physical and emotional abuse at comparable rates to men"

This campaign is pushed by the usual suspects of F4J and Torygraph, part of a broader aim to downplay male violence against women. It is conning an increasing number of people, especially those inclined anyway to make excuses for men.

Karen Smith has an excellent blog analysing statistics to show domestic violence is overwhelmingly MALE:
(CPS stats over 5 years) 93.4% of those convicted were MALE.

Female victims are far more likely to suffer violence, to suffer more repeated incidents, to suffer worse injury.
Contrary to popular myth, men are MORE likely to report an incident and to continue with prosecution.

Home Office statistics for England & Wales show on average per year:
. 100 women killed by past or present male partners
. 10 men also killed by MALE partners
. 20 men killed by female partners

So, 20 female killers for every 110 male killers.

See also the very sad Counting Dead Women

When I was being called "Wog" every day aged 9, neither I nor the boys needed access to mental health professionals.
We just needed the teachers to say this was unacceptable and impose sanctions if they didn't stop.

If everyone had waited to establish exactly why racist behaviour happens, I'd still be getting these insults at my current age of 59. Yes, I do occasionally get some low-level stuff, but not the really damaging overt racism.
So, major progress was achieved by campaigns, education and laws.

However, I take the same precautions at age 59 as I did aged 19, to stay safe from random male violence.

Simply start with helping those people who have asked for it. We don't effectively do that yet and yes it does seem wrong that millions are spent on awareness campaigns when there isn't the infrastructure there to help even the people who are aware they have a problem.

But how does that help the women and children (and other men) who are too scared to ask?

It is better to target the source - then you can hope to prevent violence, instead of mopping up after it.

What you are advocating is for people to find out they 'have a problem' by getting beaten up, isn't it?

I think campaigns can be useful but this one isn't hard hitting enough. I think it should state the statistics and really put the responsibility on to men, not just 'dads'.

I actually like it's gendered nature but I find it too soft. I do agree with capsicum, that people who are capable of producing violence are a different animal and probably won't be affected by a poster campaign. However, it should be used on young teen males

But you might not have a problem until you are beat up. Or you might if you are abused in other ways. The thing is you don't (individually) have a problem until something happens. A whole host of problems might actually be caused if undue suspicion causes anxiety.

As for asking for help, help needs to be approachable and available. Does the campaign focus on this?

If you honestly believe that DV starts with physical violence, then I'm afraid you're starting to look like you don't know what you're talking about.

If this campaign leads men in general to be regarded with suspicion then what is their place in society? How can they contribute all we want them too if they cannot be trusted, if they are deemed 'prone' to violence? This just reinforces traditional gender divides...

Regarding the campaign, it focuses on the disapproval of male violent action, not on solving it. If a father, for example, did have genuine difficulty controlling his violent outbursts, the poster serves to reinforce shame which might hinder him asking for help.

I don't condone violence. I believe in supporting victims. However shaming groups of people, rather than being disapproving of types of behaviour, I just feel does no good. People are more than their behaviour. Shaming just promotes denial.

Plays I never said DV did start with physical violence, hence I mentioned other types of abuse in my post.

Which form of abuse should the money be concentrated on, in your opinion then?

Capsium So...don't tell the truth about male violence as it may hurt men's feelings and cause men to be even more violent?

Play the money should be focussed on wherever the need is most intense.

NiNoKuni no tell the truth but more of the truth, people often need help to get better.

Aren't that what the posters are doing, offering help? There's a phone number and everything.

'Aren't that'? I've just had coffee, too, no excuse!

And thankfully it is. And this campaign helps. Money should of course be spent on more campaigns like this, so that the general populace slowly takes on board that violence against women is unacceptable, in the same way as money was spent on campaigns which slowly helped the general populace to see that drink driving is unacceptable and that driving without a seatbelt is unacceptable.

Money should also be spent in schools, so that children who witness or experience violence in their homes can feel confident in reporting it. Further money should be spent on educating women that they will be believed if they report, this should probably be done during ante natal classes.

This campaign should be the tip of the iceberg in showing everyone that the simple choice of violence is the wrong choice. Rather than spending money trying to find excuses for violent men.

It seems that the posters are alienating a significant proportion of men, which the poster identifies as the perpetrators of violence in practice - which is not conducive to help being sought.

Would a more gender neutral campaign, which highlighted a number of factors in the cause of violent crime, necessarily be offensive?

I agree the campaign should be addressed to all men, not just dads.

I'd have no objection to a campaign telling men that if they are violent they need to get counselling. But it must also tell them to stop the violence. Now.

Posters have worked in the past and were deemed acceptable to change unsocial behaviour.
Why must men be special snowflakes, when we didn't worry about hurt feelings wrt racism, drink driving, smoking ?

We don't have a magic wand to wave and create Utopia, so let's do what we can, to help stop male violence.

Violence against other men is unacceptable too, Plays.

Finding what may have caused somebody to behave violently, what has triggered violent outbursts, can help prevent more violent outbursts in the future. This can provide coping mechanisms. No excuses, just solving problems.

I really think that 'not alienating men' has been the default position of discussions around male violence for decades, and has very serious limits. Most men will find being told that their gender perpetrates massive levels of violence and misery on others is upsetting and makes them feel defensive. It's absolutely reasonable to worry about that.

I used to get really defensive reading feminist critics on my undergraduate literature course, because I hated the idea that people like me, who shared the masculine qualities I prided myself on, did this. I felt picked on when feminists mentioned men as the most violent and oppressive group in society. It wasn't a pleasant feeling, and I found all sorts of ways to dismiss it. (Not men like me, that was all years ago in the 50s, they have some good points but they're too extreme, they have warped perspectives because they work with victims of violence so they only see the bad side of men.)

It's understandable that we don't want to put men off, and I can attest to how off-putting the truth can be. But it is the truth. And I'm not sure there's any way of phrasing it which many men don't find offensive and upsetting. Because they should find it terribly offensive. Violent men who terrorise women do it in the name of men. They degrade women with slurs which assume that women are inferior physically and intellectually to men. They pride themselves on their proper manly attitude and self. This is something most men have probably never thought about in that way, and it should be terribly upsetting and offensive to them.

I worry that a message which is easy for men to swallow and won't shake their view of the world is not going to have any effect. This is not an argument for thoughtlessly offensive slogans, or shock tactics. But we have to accept that there's no way of discussing men's violence to women and children which doesn't make men uncomfortable. How on earth could thee be? It they weren't uncomfortable and upset by it they'd be total monsters.

It seems that the posters are alienating a significant proportion of men, which the poster identifies as the perpetrators of violence in practice - which is not conducive to help being sought.

You say this, but I think the same is often true of awareness-raising campaigns. People go through a period of anger and denial, but that doesn't mean the message doesn't sink in, in the end.

We don't really know how many men are genuinely 'alienated' by these posters (nor how to measure the significance of that number if we could find it!).

Cross post.

YY to QI. Especially this: I worry that a message which is easy for men to swallow and won't shake their view of the world is not going to have any effect. This is not an argument for thoughtlessly offensive slogans, or shock tactics. But we have to accept that there's no way of discussing men's violence to women and children which doesn't make men uncomfortable. How on earth could thee be? It they weren't uncomfortable and upset by it they'd be total monsters.

Who do you know, who is offended ?

Do many men feel alienated, or just those who are sometimes violent ?
The reaction of all the men I know would be to support the campaign, because they are decent human beings and just don't behave like that.

Same with the anti-rape posters. Men get angry if, say, they think it is ok to sleep with an unconscious woman and don't consider themselves rapists.

The BNP, Torygraph and kipperatti frequently get worked up if someone speaks out against racism, because they want to continue their freedom to spew hate.

I don't enjoy hurting anyone's feelings, but the dead and injured women are my priority.

But the ones who truly behave like 'monsters' probably won't be upset. How could they be, if they perpetrate similar scenes everyday and continue to do so? Their reality and perception of events already has to be warped.

So now the target audience is men who do not commit such acts, who do not think such acts are acceptable. It is telling them they are presumed significantly 'at risk' of doing something they already view as abhorrent. This is what is alienating.

The ones who are violent and know they are wrong but feel unable to control their violent outbursts are shamed, which could encourage denial. A 'help is available before something even worse happens' message might be better.

Some members of a privileged group can become very angry when they feel they are losing part of their privilege, however tactfully it is done.

Who is offended?

Well firstly the people who complained. Secondly messages like this make me worry concerning how the next generation of boys are perceived. Developmental differences have been observed between boys and girls, I would hate the 'blame game' to start being focussed upon younger and younger children.

I'm not sure there's such an expanse of clear blue water between 'those men who behave like monsters' and 'the men who are offended by this because they would never do any such thing'. In fact, that's what I think many men find troubling about this sort of campaign - it suggests that the masculinity and power they pride themselves on has a lot in common with the characteristics of abusers. Not everything, but too much for comfort.

I don't think we're dealing with a few incomprehensibly twisted and warped indivduals, and a vast mass of absolutely pure and innocent men. Toxic masculinity grows out of the way men are imagined and treated by our society.