sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

[bikeandrun]

My DD is y6, having a great time with a fancy dress parades and final party. Being having lots of discussions with other mums and my mum about what the girls have been wearing. Finding my responses to this difficult
" cant believe mums let their daughters out of the house dressed like that" response to crop tops, mini skirts, lots of slap high heels etc

"girls don't understand the effect they have on men when they dress like that" this was aimed at a girl in dds year who has obviously gone through puberty and has a woman's body
Are just a few quotes I have heard
As a young single woman i used to enjoy dressing in an extreme and sexual way and felt empowered and confident.BUT

These girls are not sexual beings yet but is it slut shaming or just protective parenting to not want 11 year olds to dress like this.

I persuaded dd to wear converse rather than high heels mainly cos I know she wanted to jump around like a manic but I also really didn't like how she looked in those heels.
Help me find a feminist way through these feeling as I support my daughter as she grows into a woman

My main issue with the terrible outfits I see on some girls is that they are bloody uncomfortable and you need to walk or be careful not to fall out of your top or cross you legs.
Boys don't have to do this.
Exploring sexuality is one thing but exposing flesh in tight clothes is simply uncomfortable and unhealthy in some cases. It just isn't necessary.
Also the look is miserable in that it is so noticable you pay less attention to the person than their clothes. I am a raging feminist but cannot align to what is essentially poorly fitting clothes that make a statement.

You're confusing - I think - the private expression of individual desire with the public display of desirability. The first is private between two people, the second is men showing off their ownership of it to other men.

Are you seriously telling me women do not get a personal rush being seen out with an attractive/desirable man? That women must walk some weird dress code line between being 'owned' if they dress too sexy or 'owned' if they wear a burka?

To be clear I at no point said I will be 'putting' my DD in tight clothes. I have no idea why anyone would do that.

Also to clarify 'groping' isn't some run of the mill thing women who dress like 'sluts' should expect in clubs. It's a crime, called sexual assault.

I don't get a "rush" out of being out with a fit bloke, no. I didn't realise that I should, or that this was a thing. I mean, when I've been out with really attractive men (a handful!) I've been pretty chuffed for me, I've not given a second thought to what anyone else thinks.

There was this one who was ridiculously gorgeous, we were walking through a festival together and he just had cargo shorts on, and women were literally turning around and staring at him! Which was weird. I found it quite interesting and funny! And thought, it's not many men who get that sort of attention, while women and girls get it all the time. Anyway.

Plus he had a very lovely body and was all sun-kissed and stuff, like model looking, tall and lean an muscular, I won't go on any more but honestly he was amazing, and he was just wearing shorts. So was he "showing it off" and maybe being "slutty"? Or was he just wearing a pair of shorts on a nice day? He's a bloke, so it's the latter, isn't it. Some people will think, oh he knows he looks good, but they won't make that leap to oh he's promiscuous, he's a tart, he's asking for it, he will be at least partly to blame if a man sexually assaults him.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the thread though

Some men will be well chuffed to be out with a 12 year old. What of it?

"Are you seriously telling me women do not get a personal rush being seen out with an attractive/desirable man? That women must walk some weird dress code line between being 'owned' if they dress too sexy or 'owned' if they wear a burka?"

I'm still not sure what point you're making. But no I get no 'personal rush' from being out with a fit bloke. My DH is very very fit, he used to be a model, and I do look at him sometimes and think "ooh you're proper hot," but I get no 'rush' from other people's thoughts on him, why would I?

"Are you seriously telling me women do not get a personal rush being seen out with an attractive/desirable man?"

I can only answer that personally, and the personal answer is 'no'. For one reason or another I don't greatly value physical attractiveness. Attraction for me is based on personality, friendship and personal connection, not physical.

"That women must walk some weird dress code line between being 'owned' if they dress too sexy or 'owned' if they wear a burka?"

This is true, it's what we're discussing and why we are continually having to discuss it. Women's clothing gets constant comments, is constantly judged, because of the 'political' values around it, not the actual clothes. As Whirlpool says, the clothing itself in fact makes not a damned bit of difference.

"That women must walk some weird dress code line between being 'owned' if they dress too sexy or 'owned' if they wear a burka?"

Yes?

The only way to get men to leave you alone is often to tell them you are "owned" by someone else,

If you are out in a pub and not with an "owner" then you will often get approached by men who will not leave you alone on your say-so, they need to see a male owner, or have one invoked ("sorry I'm married"). Just telling them to go away doesn't usually work, women don't have enough authority to get them to listen.

Many men seem to operate this way. It's incredibly infuriating.

& yes. Scantily clad women are often used as "objects" in advertising - use this spray and you will get these women! & of course burqas denote ownership, in Afghanistan women weren't (aren't?) allowed out without a male owner.

It may even be that when you go out in your normal clothes, you are subconsciously more relaxed, more yourself, knowing that you're not rendering yourself vulnerable to crap, and so they leave you alone. The worse kind of men do not want to bother confident relaxed types who will shrug off their harassment

Can I make a couple of points?

I know I'm vain and shallow but clothes and style mean a lot to me. It irritates me immensely ,no matter which side of the debate the comment comes from, that choosing to dress in a way one finds attractive is just man pleasing. That was and is not my motivation. My motivation has always been to avoid the mainstream, to be someone whose style turns heads - both women and men do that.

Re the post I have quoted. I don't know what the poster means by "normal clothes " but it's not particularly relevant.
One of my looks at university was described to me as "Kate Bush dressed as Debbie Harry" Yes I'm blowing my own trumpet but possibly the icy "fuck off and die if you bother me" attitude that came with that look meant that I was not harassed.

The only way to get men to leave you alone is often to tell them you are "owned" by someone else

Sorry, I don't agree with that.

So all the women and girls who have been bothered by men who won't leave them alone are simply doing it wrong are they lass?

I feel really angry about that actually. i got loads of shit when I was young, as did most girls I know, the idea that it was our fault for bot behaving correctly is infuriating and, well, incorrect.

If you tell a man to fuck off to his face that I don't see how that can be taken as "inviting attention".

"Are you seriously telling me women do not get a personal rush being seen out with an attractive/desirable man?"

That is the weirdest comment so far. No I don't.

I can see you don't agree with that.

We obviously have had very very different experiences.

And you can't actually "disagree" with someone elses experiences.Unless you are accusing them of lying, obviously.

If you tell a man to fuck off to his face that I don't see how that can be taken as "inviting attention".

I completely agree. Oh I know it's just my personal experiences and therefore of no importance but having said "go away I'm not interested " or similar has always worked. I disagree with your assertion that it is a universal experience.

No I am not accusing you of lying. I disagree with your presenting that statement as a universal fact.

"go away I'm not interested" or similar has always worked.

yeah, round here when I was young, really really not. They were extremely persistent.

But magically, if a bloke arrived, they would disappear like a puff of smoke. The "I'm taken" thing doesn't always work easily, they quite often used to want evidence "I'm married" "where's your ring then?" or "I've got a boyfriend" "Really, what's his name, where does he live, where is he now then?" and so on.

I have told men to fuck off to their faces and with zero result in getting them to go away, only result is that they start to become aggressive. And they still won'r go away and now it's all got a bit scary actually.

For the benefit of PP who thinks clothes invite unwanted attention, I wore leggings, DMs and baggy jumpers when I was a teen / young woman!

Whirlpoolis bang on the button with experiences of being owned by the nearest male. The first time I had any unpleasant experience (nothing too serious, just groping and frottaging) was at the tender age of 8 or so, even then when I didn't know what the hell was going on I knew the way to get away from him was to declare that I'd seen my father and brother. And my parents' method of protecting me following my first stalker was to declare that I must be in my younger brother's company at all times.

The fact of male ownership affecting availability of women for harassment is deeply ingrained. I've just been watching all creatures great and small again, where at one point the flirtatious tTristan runs foul of a woman's big husband - his excuse is that he couldn't see a ring, he always checks. She'd taken it off for cooking. In Howl's Moving Castle, the hero protects a young woman from persistent soldiers by pretending to be her boyfriend. No male ownership= fair game. And yes in any pub, women on their own are fair game. Sound familiar at all? It would to most women. Because of course we're all just gagging for it off random strangers all the time and any random male has the right to harass women.

DWH - it doesn't matter what a woman wears, she is public property, owned by men. I've been assaulted and shouted at wearing school uniform, jeans, a long dress and tights, a short skirt and no tights, a swimming costume, running gear, in fact every type of clothing you can think of. When I was raped I was wearing pyjamas.

What clothes you wear makes fuck all difference. But society likes to tell women that if they wear 'slutty' clothes then they're fair game because that makes life easier for sexual predators, most of whom are men.

I think possibly, Lass, we're talking about different generational differences. Sexualisation has increased, male expectations of entitlement have increased. Things are in many ways getting worse. I was a teen in the 80s/ 90s, when was it for you?

It was a universal fact round here lass. Hence my statement.

I cannot imagine the situation being as you describe. So I'm not going to say yes that was totally incorrect because in my fairly large experience it is true (especially when you're about 14 - 25) that "The only way to get men to leave you alone is often to tell them you are "owned" by someone else".

And here you are saying that all the girls and women round here were behaving incorrectly in some way and brought this behaviour on themselves. Which has made me very angry. I hated it. My friends hated it. Don't you think if there had been a way of getting rid of them we would have done it FFS.

That's some victim blaming right there, surely. Man follows girl around giving her unwanted attention, she tells him to go away, leave her alone, she's not interested, ^ etc and so forth. He doesn't go away. This is her fault.

Whirling "victim blaming" because my experience doesn't accord with yours?

Because it happened to you it must be a universal experience for all women?

I didn't say any of the things you have said. I can't help or comment on what happened to you but just because it did it doesn't mean it happens to all women.

Because you said that you never got any unwanted attention due to your demeanour.

"Yes I'm blowing my own trumpet but possibly the icy "fuck off and die if you bother me" attitude that came with that look meant that I was not harassed."

Therefore any girls who did get unwanted attention could have avoided that if they had adopted the same "attitudue" as you did.

And so if they got harassed by persistent men, they could have stopped it if they wanted, and they didn't, so it's their own fault. It was avoidable. They didn't avoid it.

That's victim blaming.

No your post told me it was my fault because my attitude was wrong. Your post said that if only me and my friends had adopted a different "attitude" it would never have happened, we would have been left alone.

That has made me angry.

And it's patent cobblers anyway. If calmly telling a man to fuck off right to his face (after telling him you're not interested etc) doesn't count as a "don't bother me" attitude then I don't know what does.

It also shows up the idea that actually women and girls who are not in a state of constant "fuck off and die" (not that that works but anyway) are automatically approachable.

This attitude amongst men is also part of the problem. When a women is quietly going about her own business in a standard way she should not be deemed "up for harassment". And oh look, if she's doing exactly the same but with a man by her side, she won't be either.

Not "fuck off and die" but assertive, confident, sure of your own autonomy maybe. I went out dressed in all sorts from about 13 upwards. Often alcohol was involved I have never been sexuality assaulted.....My Dm always said "look like you know where you are going and if anyone lays a finger on you shout". This served both me and mY dsis well, and hot pants were a favourite of mine.