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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

582 replies

bikeandrun · 17/07/2015 09:34

My DD is y6, having a great time with a fancy dress parades and final party. Being having lots of discussions with other mums and my mum about what the girls have been wearing. Finding my responses to this difficult
" cant believe mums let their daughters out of the house dressed like that" response to crop tops, mini skirts, lots of slap high heels etc

"girls don't understand the effect they have on men when they dress like that" this was aimed at a girl in dds year who has obviously gone through puberty and has a woman's body
Are just a few quotes I have heard
As a young single woman i used to enjoy dressing in an extreme and sexual way and felt empowered and confident.BUT

These girls are not sexual beings yet but is it slut shaming or just protective parenting to not want 11 year olds to dress like this.

I persuaded dd to wear converse rather than high heels mainly cos I know she wanted to jump around like a manic but I also really didn't like how she looked in those heels.
Help me find a feminist way through these feeling as I support my daughter as she grows into a woman

OP posts:
WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 21:32

I agree laurief

marmaladeatkinz · 19/07/2015 21:37

JAPAB What people are suggesting is that, by wearing clothes which reveal more of your body;

a)invites sexual attention
b) says something about your character

Do you agree with either a or b?

mrstweefromtweesville · 19/07/2015 21:38

I am pretty sure that most 10 year olds have encountered porn, are using sexual language, some are even asking for naked pictures from the opposite sex
I'm not 'pretty sure' about that - I think you are wrong!

Aside, I caution you to stop beating your head against a brick wall with this lot. They're the 'Slut up, its your right to be a slut' brigade.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 21:38

But we all know this right?

Most of us (not all) have had experiences of men behaving badly in all sorts of ways to us when we were in a range of clothing.

This thread is about children's clothing. If a man is attracted to a children, or 11 yo girls, then that is what he is attracted to. And if he is a man who can't keep his thoughts to himself, he will act on this with children that he has access to and what they are wearing will make fuck all difference.

Think about the men in the shops who were raping and trafficking scores of girls. Do people seriously believe that their behaviour was in any way influenced by what those children were wearing?

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 21:40

Who is aside?

And of course women have the right to have lots of sexual partners, if that is what they want.

What does "slut up" mean? Is that a term for getting dressed up for a Friday night out on the town? Never heard it before.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 21:41

Oh this "And of course women have the right to have lots of sexual partners, if that is what they want." I'm assuming when you say "its your right to be a slut" you mean women with lots of sexual partners.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 21:41

Or maybe you mean a woman who looks like she has lots of sexual partners but in fact may not?

Because obviously you can't tell by looking at a woman how many men she's fucked. Or even if she likes men, for that matter!

marmaladeatkinz · 19/07/2015 21:49

Mrs my dd, doesn't 'slut up' you disgusting human being

marmaladeatkinz · 19/07/2015 21:51

But whirlpool as you rightly said we are discussing child, ergo Mrs is talking about children who look like they've had lots of sexual partners Angry

laurierf · 19/07/2015 21:57

its your right to be a slut

It's absolutely your right to have as many casual sexual partners as you want. I don't think it's right to not be honest and upfront with those partners about the fact they are "casual" but that's me personally.

What has that got to do with children's clothing?

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 21:57

Well TBF lots of posters have been talking about children aged 7 up wearing clothes that denote that they have had lots of sexual partners and are actively looking for more.

Whole thing turns my stomach really. This is the sort of stuff paedophiles tell themselves and each other to justify it, isn't it.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 21:58

Or was it 10 up?

Not going to reread the whole thing> But yes we are talking about children.

JAPAB · 19/07/2015 22:05

What makes the difference is the person in the dress and your friend was discomfited because he found a 14yo girl's legs sexy and rather than re-evaluating what 14yo might look like he blamed her for choosing a certain type of skirt and "making" him look at her and make what he subsequently realised were inappropriate comments!

Sometimes you can't help noticing the people around you. Not really about anyone "making" anyone look at them. But if they are there and have dressed in a way that emphasises part of themselves, well sometimes this is bound to be noticed.

If you put on a grey wig, apply makeup to make yourself look elderly, and otherwise do things to make yourself appear like an elderly person, and someone actually mistakes you for an elderly person, they might be a little taken aback when they find out that you are not.

But then as well as dress seemingly making no difference to people's thoughts, younger girls also never dress to make themselves have a 'look' that is associated with older women, it seems according to this thread.

laurierf · 19/07/2015 22:09

Makes me think of that very good parody of a the Daily Mail "Downing Street Catwalk" article by the New Statesmen that was linked to on here. All the male MPs in their "daring" navy suits… of course their conservative clothing absolutely tells us that Westminster MPs are strictly monogamous and would never have more than one sexual partner on the go at any one time Hmm

Clothing in general daily life means nothing about your sexuality when you are adult, let alone when you are a child.

JAPAB · 19/07/2015 22:09

"yes with all else equal ie the 90yo doesn't have the looks and body of a 20yo and the 20yo doesn't have the looks and body of a 90yo! Or some other very unusual set of circumstances. In general, a man will feel more appreciative of a 20yo in a dress than a 90yo in a bikini!

It is not the CLOTHES it is the person IN THEM. "

OK, so take the same PERSON each time, a 20-year-old with what most would consider a good body, arrange for her to pass me by on the street on two different days, and guess what, the day she is wearing a bikini is the day I am more likely to have an appreciative thought as opposed to the day she is in the habit. I am sure I am not unique amongst men.

LassUnparalleled · 19/07/2015 22:11

It's your right to be a slut. It's absolutely your right to have as many casual sexual partners as you want. I don't think it's right to not be honest and upfront with those partners about the fact they are "casual" but that's me personally

Straying from the topic but what is this comment supposed to mean? Are you suggesting there are actually circumstances where "slut" is an acceptable description?

JAPAB · 19/07/2015 22:14

marmaladeatkinz
"JAPAB What people are suggesting is that, by wearing clothes which reveal more of your body;

a)invites sexual attention
b) says something about your character

Do you agree with either a or b?"

a) I wouldn't use the word "invite". I believe that for some men there is a correlation between dress and their thoughts, and maybe for some men there may be a correlation between dress and their actions.

b) I suppose theoretically it can, up to a point.

laurierf · 19/07/2015 22:16

Lass - I've had this conversation on here before. The generation younger than us are using the word slut to apply equally to men as women. No need for the prefix "man" when referring to men. It's not a word I use because it means something different to my generation. But the dictionary definition is "a women who has many casual sexual partners". Is it your right to be a woman with many casual sexual partners? Absolutely.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 22:24

JAPAB "Sometimes you can't help noticing the people around you. Not really about anyone "making" anyone look at them. But if they are there and have dressed in a way that emphasises part of themselves, well sometimes this is bound to be noticed."

But it wasn't your friends thoughts that were the problem it was the fact that he acted on them ie he vocalised them to the people he was with.

(It's not clear but assuming he didn't vocalise them to her by shouting or whistling or something).

So the problem here is not that a girl who is 14 has "nice" legs that are appreciated by a grown man, but that he didn't keep his reaction to himself.

If she had decided not to wear the skirt, and had instead worn jeans, he or another man might have made a comment about her arse.

If she had worn clothes which covered her but she had a large chest, he or another man might have felt moved to comment / stare at that.

It is not the clothes. Really it isn't. It's the attitude of some / many men that makes them feel that they can act (whether verbally or physically) to express their sexual desire for random women and girls who are just going about the place minding their own business.

laurierf · 19/07/2015 22:26

Oh and yes, Lass, let me pre-empt you on this one… it's not necessarily - occasionally but often not - being used as an insulting term (for either men or women).

LassUnparalleled · 19/07/2015 22:26

But the dictionary definition is "a women who has many casual sexual partners".

Dictionaries contain many pejorative words.

I'd no more countenance calling a who has many casual sexual partners a "slut" than I would call the child of unmarried parents a bastard.

That's in the dictionary too.

marmaladeatkinz · 19/07/2015 22:30

A) I didn't ask about correlations that men make, blah blah. I am asking whether you agree that a 14 year old girl showing flesh is inviting sexual attention, as people are suggesting?

B) there is nothing 'theoretical' to say here. Do you think skimpy clothes say something about a Gus character. You replied, up to a point. Which point?

LassUnparalleled · 19/07/2015 22:31

Oh and according to the 24 year temporarily at home "slut" is a horrible word and he's never heard it used about a man.

Frankly it's a vile word. It doesn't make it any better because some younger people still use it and very occasionally it might be used for a man.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 22:32

I see lots of people every day and the ones men stare at are the ones who are very pretty / very noticeable (hair / makeup / clothes style) or the ones who have "good" bodies.

There are loads of women around in short skirts and many of them don't attract a second glance.

If the girl your friend made a salacious comment about had been in the same clothes but didn't have legs of a type that he admires - then he wouldn't have made the comment. Say she was very short and very fat with short stumpy legs. Nothing wrong with that, just assuming that they are not the sort of legs your friend felt moved to comment on. So, same clothes, female legs, no comment. Because it is the body that is of interest. Not the clothes.

Although TBF men like your friend might well be the sort of person to shout "don't fancy yours much" or "put them away stumpy" or something else delightful at a female who dared not to meet his standards.

Incidentally most of the comments I got when I was a girl were about my hair, one of my friends drew a lot of attention about her breasts. I suppose I could have shaved my head and worn a wig, or maybe some kind of hair covering, my friend could have bound her breasts or had some kind of surgery on them.....

Point is leery shouty men will leer and shout (and worse) at all sorts of different girls for all sorts of reasons and whatever they are wearing. The problem here is men who can't and won't keep their thoughts to themselves.

laurierf · 19/07/2015 22:37

Connotations change whether we want them too or not. I have said I don't use the word because it means something different to you and me. But actually I am caring less and less about the use of the word 'slut' to refer to someone with many casual sexual partners because I hear it being used as a non-insulting word to refer to males and females. I don't countenance it as an insult in my daily life but I'm not going to get worked up by the type of loser who makes the post I was responding to because there is clearly no point in reasoning with them. I never hear the word 'bastard' being used about the child of unmarried parents but will check in with you if it ever happens.