Its all one big conspiracy

[yazz21]

Its only after all the transgender threads on here recently, that I've thought about feminism, and started looking into things. The more I read, the more I learn, the more shocked I am.

Its just like one massive conspiracy that I never saw. Now my eyes have been opened to it, I can't stop seeing it. (Not that I'd want to.) I see everything around me so differently. Just little things that all add up to keeping women subordinate.I never realised how much my behaviour, thoughts and actions is not innate, but things I've learned through socialisation.

I really wish I'd seen it all earlier, but for some reason I had this notion that feminism was just men hating women who were probably hairy and/or lesbians I wonder who benefitted from me thinking that.

I'm not sure what my point is really, but I feel really angry on behalf of women and really want to do something about it. However there are no feminist groups/meetings in my area, and I'm not well read enough to start one. Any other angry womenn here? Also if anyone could reccomend some books, so I can further my understanding. I would be really grateful.

I prefer woodlice to cats or dogs. I particularly like earthworms.

And slow worms. There was a lovely slow worm thread.

But perhaps we can all agree to be unimpressed by slugs.

Ahem. Sorry for derailing. Dull moment at work.

It's the noticed/shamed thing that makes it a feminist issue for me.

Take men and beards. At least in the UK in recent decades this has gone in fashions. 10 years ago, a bearded man would have been unfashionable, and not cool (and maybe a throwback to the 70s) but that's as far as the judgement would have gone. Nowadays I gather beards are a symbol of being a hipster and therefore fashionable (mind you, being an old gimmer, I'm not sure that I follow this). Or maybe we've passed "peak beard" and it isn't fashionable any more.

What I've never seen, apropos of men and beards, is the assumption I have seen aired on threads about women shaving, which is that women who don't shave are dirty/smelly. And it's not just under the guise of anonymity - I remember a young man at a party once realising I had unshaven armpits and telling me it was disgusting. (He realised his mistake pretty soon afterwards after I made verbal mincemeat of him). Unlike beards, body hair on women is not a "some people like that look, other people don't" issue - there is a strong element of body-shaming attached which simply does not happen to men.

I totally agree that it's culturally arbitrary, and historically and geographically variable (reference in the Lysistrata to women plucking their triangles, for instance - and made quite clearly in the context of making themselves sexually attractive). But in the particular culture in which I live, I have never heard of a man being told he was disgusting for having a beard. I have, as a woman, been told to my face that I am disgusting for having hairy armpits.

I've been having these lightbulb moments too, and varying levels of anger.

I've always been gender critical, and my daughter has always had a range of toys and colours to choose from but it was having my son that really made me feel like a feminist (I don't know enough to sub categorise myself yet though!). I noticed the different ways in which he was treated to how my daughter was treated at that age. Subtle things, phrases such as "proper little boy" and even just the way they spoke to and handled them.

Then I was going to pick DD up from school one day when DS was around 11 months and a big lorry went past us and he watched it go past and I had a thought of "he's a boy, he'll probably like trucks and cars" and them remembered I bought DD a toy garage for her 1st birthday because she was also fascinated by things with wheels and I realised that even though I thought I was more immune to gender stereotypes I really wasn't.

As for leg hair, I will go without shaving sometimes, though I have very little underarm hair anyway, and will sometimes leave the house in summer like that, but I do feel more self concious if I haven't shaved. \so it feels more like not shaving is my own private protest sometimes.

Thanks for all the reading recommendations too.

I have declared war on slugs after 80% of my pea plants were destroyed this year. Bastards.

BuffyTheRecentlyReturnedFeminist said: "My feminist beliefs simply encourage me to recognise the practice of hair removal as one that is cultural, and to notice 1. the different standards of hair removal that men and women in our culture practice; 2. how much more onerous and time consuming are the female hair removal processes expected by our culture at this time; 3. how men seem to have more choice - various facial hair removal styles or totally bearded; and 4. how much more women seem to be noticed and shamed if they buck the norm."

If someone is going to say that life is more difficult for women than for men, they obviously need to understand both women's lives and man's lives, and I don't think Buffy has put much work into this.

Item 1 isn't an issue, but then with 2, how much time do men typically put into facial shaving, on a daily basis? And along with that, we'd have to consider how free men are to grow beards--as Lurcio said, it's variable according to fashion, and what kind of social environment a man lives in. That gets into item 3, who has more choice, and there Buffy is ignoring reality to a large extent. We allow women an enormous amount more choice regarding clothing and grooming than we let men have, and part of that choice involves revealing or covering the body. If a woman wears tops with sleeves, and trousers/leggings/tights that cover her legs (or a long skirt) then the question of shaving body hair never arises at all. It's only when women exercise their freedom to wear revealing clothing that the question of limits on female freedom arises. Some people might not like the restrictions, but if anyone has more freedom, I don't see how anyone can deny that it's women.

But then, suppose a woman did go around covered up as much as men typically are, and surely there are some who do exactly that--you might see a man in the supermarket wearing shorts on a warm day, and his furry legs aren't a problem for anyone. Few women would care to go out dressed the same way, with similar furry legs. But imagine a man showing his legs (even if they were shaved!) in any slightly formal business or social environment! That gets us to the last point, who gets noticed or shamed the most. Sure, as long as the men wear their uniforms, they'll have no trouble. But if a man is improperly dressed according to our social rules, I believe the disapproval would be severe. If a woman says "I would feel very uncomfortable with hairy legs, say, at work" how would she feel about seeing men's hairy legs, say, at work?

I'd also say "For me, it's interesting as a cultural practice that shows quite clearly different (and rather unequal) expectations between men and women". But let's look at the whole picture; the restrictions aren't all on one side.

I seem to have acrobatic slugs - they manage to get at plants that I could have sworn it was impossible to get to (mind you, I did read about burrowing slugs, so perhaps they hide in the pots themselves)

For me, it's the barefaced cheek of DP (who barely has a bald patch on his body) telling me that my hairy armpits are smelly because of the hair, and that my legs look horrible unshaven.

What is he saying about his own body by saying that? What is it saying about me that I'm supposed to put up with his hair, whereas my hair is intolerable to him?

I'm afraid it's brought out some petty bolshiness in me (which I fully realise is childish) - I've said that I will go back to my daily shaving if he just does the same thing for a month. I'm not asking him to pluck or wax or anything painful, just shave his legs and armpits for a month. No-one will know (he doesn't wear shorts or vests, and we rarely go swimming), I just want him to experience it before just adding it to the list of tasks I'm supposed to perform for no reason other than he'd like me to. (we have a strong relationship - this is purely a minor discussion/game - not some kind of deal-breaking war)

Women! It's your own fault! If you cover up your filthy hairy bodies then no one would ask you to wax or do anything painful to yourself!

Fancy wanting freedom.

I've had the opposite as a man. It is really easy to fall back into the old routine and as I am in a position of authority/power I have to try really hard.

"It's only when women exercise their freedom to wear revealing clothing"

What, revealing clothing like a traditional knee legnth work skirt?

"if anything the wood louse is more useful than the kitten."

Sorry - mixed up plural/singular in the original.

How is a wood louse more useful than a kitten?

I think for me its the fact, that yes men can be influenced by fashion, the culture of the area they live in, and social reasons in regards to their body hair. (E.g beards, chest.)

However, essentially it is their choice what they do with their body hair. It is not set in stone that they have to comply with these norms. It is perfectly acceptable for men to deviate from the norm depending on their personal preference. Men do not face the negative repercussions women would. Men are not body shamed for not following the trend of waxing/shaving their chest, or for not having a particular, fashionable, style of beard.

Whereas women are body shamed if they wear a skirt/shorts/dress and haven't complied with the norm of shaving their legs.

Also in the last 15 years, in regards to men, what's fashionable for their body hair in western cultures regularly changes. But for women body hair has never been acceptable.

(I know 15 years seems random, buts as long as I've been old enough to pay attention).

How is a wood louse more useful than a kitten?

They eat decaying leaf and plant matter and play a role in the natural carbon dioxide cycle. Kittens and cats are largely decorative, greatly over-rated as pest control (mine operate a catch in the garden and release in the house policy for mice) although are still lovely.

Does that make sense? E.g if a man wasn't up with the current fashion of beard. He might receive a comment such as "you're a bit behind mate". Or if he has a hairy chest he might receive a general comment about him being hairy. Whereas a woman who hasn't shaved can be expected to receive a comment such as "you're disgusting".
(As another poster has first hand experience of.)

Science disagress on cats

Killer cats

Again... just because you have observed something singularly, doesn't mean that one can successfully extrapolate anything from it.

Greetings card shops, art galleries, the Internet are awash with cats and kittens. I don't recall wood lice featuring prominently. I might be wrong here but I suspect that is because people like looking at cats and they don't like looking at wood lice.

Animal conservation charities use the lookers of the animal world to promote their cause. A timber wolf or a siberian tiger is going to have more effect than the blob fish.

Beyondthewall did you find them on the internet, or draw them yourself?

Haha, google is my friend!

I made a wood louse costume for my ds once.

Ha!

Bert that's interesting, what did you make the costume out of?