Its all one big conspiracy

[yazz21]

Its only after all the transgender threads on here recently, that I've thought about feminism, and started looking into things. The more I read, the more I learn, the more shocked I am.

Its just like one massive conspiracy that I never saw. Now my eyes have been opened to it, I can't stop seeing it. (Not that I'd want to.) I see everything around me so differently. Just little things that all add up to keeping women subordinate.I never realised how much my behaviour, thoughts and actions is not innate, but things I've learned through socialisation.

I really wish I'd seen it all earlier, but for some reason I had this notion that feminism was just men hating women who were probably hairy and/or lesbians I wonder who benefitted from me thinking that.

I'm not sure what my point is really, but I feel really angry on behalf of women and really want to do something about it. However there are no feminist groups/meetings in my area, and I'm not well read enough to start one. Any other angry womenn here? Also if anyone could reccomend some books, so I can further my understanding. I would be really grateful.

Ash, completely agree. I don't post a lot myself, because I feel I can't articulate myself aswell as other posters.

Don't worry, yazz- there are plenty of people who prefer under thinking to over thinking. Or, indeed, to thinking at all!

If you haven't read very much about feminism, have a a go at Caitlin Moran's How to be a Woman and see what you think. She is blunt and funny and not theoretical at all. Even if you don't agree with her, you'll probably have a good time reading it, and you won't have that "bugger, that's 4 hours I'll never get back" feeling when you get to the end. £3.04 on Kindle so won't break the bank either.

I stayed away for years too, scared i wasnt read up enough. The majority of posters are nice people though, just like the rest of mn really

Ok, thanks Bert I like it when books are funny :)

I think its because, even when I'm reading a lighhearted thread in chat. Everyone sounds so intelligent and witty, and I end up googling the definition of quite a few words. So I think, if I posted my opinions somewhere, where there was an actual intelligent debate going on. I'd be slaughtered

It was this sort of realisation that made me realise my husband was abusive. Or his abuse made me realise aboyt feminism. Not sure which. I LTB though, so its all good.

I'd join the bookclub :)

And again, Lass proves the very point I made.

Thanks Lass... stick around... you make pointing out the evils of Patriarchy so much easier

Ooh, I'd love a book club.

Yeah, I feel up for a book club :)

Lass you really do prove people's points.

I feel like my life has been littered with people like you. The kind of person who, when you ask a question like "why is she getting blamed for this but not him", "why does she always do xyz but not him", pops up to point out the individual reasons that relate to that individual case and to bring everything down to individual choice. It's massively derailing.

But it doesn't take a genius to work out that when that when the majority of individuals are all making the same choices then something bigger than pure individual choice is going on.

I'd rather be an individual who just shaves my legs because I think they look nicer than indulge in the constant navel gazing required to be a feminist (which clearly must involve a lot more than just believing in equality )

And whether or not it's not really my free choice, well you know I honestly don't care.

Bacon soo glad I amuse you.

How can anyone who lives their day-to-day life within a society not take some decisions which are affected by the attitudes of that society? From the important stuff like drink-driving, to the trivial involving fashion or entertainment, we are all influenced - aren't we? It's a mixture of the law, culture, social expectation, peer pressure, individual taste, self-confidence and self-esteem. And some of these change as we grow older.

So, for example, how would we decide between Lass's decision to shave her legs, and my son's decision to wear ridiculous skinny-fit jeans. I think they look awful - he thinks I'm an out-of-touch old man. Is one a conspiracy, or both, or neither?

Wearing skinny fit jeans is an unfair comparison. Your son is unlikely to be ridiculed if he doesn't wear skinny fit jeans, and if he was, definately not to the exent of someone not shaving their legs.

That should of read a woman not someone, and I ment if that woman was wearing a skirt/dress/shorts and out in public where her lack of shaven legs would be obvious.

Well its a long time since I was a teenager, but they do all seem to want to look the same. There is, and always has been, a huge desire to conform, to fit in, to be fashionable. If there wasn't peer pressure, they wouldn't do it. And how much pressure is exerted by teenage boys on other boys to conform - well, only a teenage boy would know that, wouldn't he? In the same way as I can't quantify how much pressure a woman is under to shave her legs. I have never been one. So all I could offer is an opinion.

Also yazz, it's very cultural isn't it? In mainland Europe there are cultures where women feel much less need to remove body hair. Probably in other parts of the world too. You might not worry so much if you came from another country.

I remember the first time I shaved my legs (against my poor mum's reasoning) was because a girlfriend had laughed at my legs in front of a guy I fancied.

It's messed up for sure. We internalise the crap and dump it on other women because we don't want to be the ones left out in the cold.

If God / nature had intended us to be hairless then he/it would have made us hairless.

The hair's there for a reason folks! !

Yops why are you just repeatedly stating the obvious? Of course people tend to want to fit in in general. This is about a further point, which is that often the consequences for women for not fitting in, or the efforts a woman must go to in order to fit in, are often disproportionate in comparison to men. These consequences and efforts are on a varying scale of seriousness, obviously. And there have been many scenarios in which it has been deemed impossible for a woman to ever fit in.

Yops, sadly, even in cultures where body hair was perfectly normal on women, they are now being sucked in to the same must be hairless or be body shamed by idiots vortex as the rest of Europe. Of course, despite centuries of not giving a hoot, they are now individually choosing to shave off all their body hair.

I'm not sure it is quite the same - yes, I see loads of kids in skinny jeans, but then I'll also see kids in stupidly baggy jeans, in chinos, black leather coats and kilts etc. depending on which teenager tribe the belong to. So they're expected to conform, but they have some leeway in what they conform to.

every woman is expected to have hairless legs and armpits if they're going to be seen by other human beings - from 10 year olds to pensioners. Sure there are other cultures that might not be so uptight, but ours is, to the extent that if a vaguely famous woman is spotted out, with hair on display it's reported in the papers. I've never seen someone reported in the papers because they decided not to wear skinny jeans that day!

Having said this, I've been making a conscious effort to have my young sons see an unmodified female body (also, am lazy) as normal, and have been swimming a few times unshaven anywhere (and folks, it's pretty luxuriant) - not a single fuck seems to have been given by anyone (although, I'm concentrating on the kids, and not other adults, so perhaps if I went with people I know other than DP I might get some comments)

There is a thread about shaving in either chat or AIBU about shaving and poster RabbitStew made some interesting (to me ) points about the issue of culturally aesthetics.

It is not the case hair removal is a new thing or unique to western European /American society. Ancient Greece, Egyptians, Romans removed body hair, North American native people did.

The desire to remove hair seems to have a long history with variations of what is removed. In the 1500's women removed their eyebrows and front hairs from their heads to give the illusion of an elongated forehead.

Beards are not popular in western society.

Personally I think this obsession that no woman can decide to shave her legs unless she admits she has been coerced in to it by the patriarchy ignores the question of body hair being(for many people ) unaestheticaly pleasing. Why is that?

Kittens are aesthetically pleasing those odd looking creatures you find under stones (called slaters in Scotland I don't know their proper name-wood lice?) aren't. Why is that? Both are natural, neither are dangerous, if anything wood lice is more useful than the kitten.
I see the shaving arguments as an attempt to impose some person's views of what should be aesthetically pleasing on others and quite often in a belittling way (e.g there is a comment in the pub about the thread I'm referring to dismissing it , without actually having read it)

I'm also not persuaded by the as nature intended argument. Nature intended me to be so short sighted I could hardly safely leave the house in an unmodified condition. One modification is essential the other is pleasing to my eye.

I hate cats and love woodlice so i may not understand your view

I would guess it is best to debate the deeper 'why do people remove hair and when did they do it throughout history' on the actual thread though, rather than here?