Its all one big conspiracy

[yazz21]

Its only after all the transgender threads on here recently, that I've thought about feminism, and started looking into things. The more I read, the more I learn, the more shocked I am.

Its just like one massive conspiracy that I never saw. Now my eyes have been opened to it, I can't stop seeing it. (Not that I'd want to.) I see everything around me so differently. Just little things that all add up to keeping women subordinate.I never realised how much my behaviour, thoughts and actions is not innate, but things I've learned through socialisation.

I really wish I'd seen it all earlier, but for some reason I had this notion that feminism was just men hating women who were probably hairy and/or lesbians I wonder who benefitted from me thinking that.

I'm not sure what my point is really, but I feel really angry on behalf of women and really want to do something about it. However there are no feminist groups/meetings in my area, and I'm not well read enough to start one. Any other angry womenn here? Also if anyone could reccomend some books, so I can further my understanding. I would be really grateful.

Just the correct amount, buffy.

Wow. Some really interesting discussion going on.

Garlick enjoyed reading about your hairy legs experiment :)

Have to agree with the posters who are saying more options, but less freedom. I remember at 6th form, if a guy wanted to wear the same t shirt for multiple days in a row, noone took any notice. If a woman wore the same top more than once in the same week, even with days inbetween. A lot of people would comment. Both to her, and behind her back. Particularly other women and in a very negative way.

"Overthinking" is in the same category as "looking for things to be offended by"

Love it when women get told they're over thinking things. It's like we're expected to be happy with under thinking things and therefore accepting a status quo which does us no favours.

People who accuse others of over thinking things regularly, or navel gazing or any of the other insults which are meant to make women feel bad for using their brains, tend to be massive under thinkers, and therefore of little merit.

It's interesting how many women are so very invested in maintaining the status quo.

Isn't it though?

Speaking of the australian bloke, I've seen articles where they minutely dissect the outfits women in the royal family wear, even pointing out the re-wear with decades in between!

I'm sure no-one is taking any note of the colour of Prince Charles jacket, or when he last wore those trousers though.

They've recently done the same with Angela Merkel as well. I'm sure all the men at the G8 boy's club manage to get away without having their re-wearing of suits written about in such sneering detail.

Yes it is interesting. Why do women feel such need to police other women?

Is it because they've been policed themselves so feel the need to maintain it? Jealousy that other women are going against the grain, where they feel unable to? Somethingelse entirely?

I have found that it's the type of woman who doesn't believe there's anything to police who polices women most harshly. Wonder if there's any research to back up my anecdata? Just because I've experienced something, doesn't mean it's universal now, does it?

There are plenty of women too who feel that they are doing very well out of the status quo and don't want the boat rocked. There are others who want to be able to keep their heads in the sand and attqck is the best form of shutting up anyone saying anything that makes them feel uncomfortable. There are the Maggie Thatcher types who think "well, I made it in the current climate, so why should anyone else have it easier". And there are the "cool girls" who "like men better than women" because women are so bitchy and moany.

Here is a great and topical article re two BioPics currently on release - Amy Winehouse and Kurt Cobain: pitchfork.com/thepitch/808-amy-winehouse-kurt-cobain-and-the-gendering-of-martyrdom/

The difference between how Amy was treated in her film - unhinged, drunk, drug addled, with very little about her many musical, vocal, performer and songwriting talents, and how Kurt was treated - a musical genius and visionary, who had drug issues in the background of his life, speaks volumes about how men and women are treated differently and held to different standards.

"In the course of Amy, a newscaster reports on Winehouse’s infamous meltdown in Serbia by commenting that “she had the chance to make a big comeback and she totally BLEW it!” while laughing through a segment that dovetails with George Lopez announcing that Winehouse had won a Grammy by saying, "someone call and wake her up at 6 PM and let her know" before calling her “a drunk” with a derisive scoff. A slurry of ugly tabloid images fly across the screen and we see paparazzi preying upon her existential nadir-- meanwhile, Montage of Heck posits a cache of neat magazine covers that offer obsequious, reverential coverage of a man whose drug addiction was portrayed as incidental to his supreme talent. Even though both deaths were motivated by depression underscored by narcotics and celebrity, Montage depicts a context in which the public was willing Cobain to succeed, whereas Winehouse, when confronted with similar drug-addled obstacles, was met with ridicule and slander. If Amy proves anything about the life and times of Winehouse, it’s that newscasters, tabloids, and even respected media outlets reported on her shortcomings with enough thinly-veiled aggression to weaken what little resolve the drugs hadn’t already sapped. Cobain’s struggle with drugs, meanwhile, was all but an open secret while he was alive, whispered about or written around in order to maintain good graces and access to the superstar and his band.
The unequal treatment here is not new."

Oo I remember reading an article or something about the "cool girls". It was about how having a woman around who was "one of the guys" allowed men to make misogynist/sexist comments, and allowed that to be ok. Because there was a woman there agreeing with them/not calling them out on their behaviour, it therefore allowed their behaviour/views to be seen as acceptable.

I don't think I'm explaining this well. I'll find it!

LovelyFriend that article sounds really interesting. I'll have a read.

I think it's BECAUSE women get such a wide choice of what to wear that it gets commented on - why is she wearing x when she could be wearing y? Look how different/similar she is to me because I wouldn't/would choose the same thing? (ref. the royal christening mindfuckery thread). If she's choosing to wear that, then I'm clearly superior because I wouldn't (ref. the bra straps thread from a few days ago).

Men are usually going to be wearing a suit for formal wear or some kind of shirt/trousers arrangement at every other time. You can't discern (or pretend to discern) anything about someone from their clothes when they're wearing exactly the same as everyone else.

Incidentally, now that summer's here, I've thought hard about what I am and am not prepared to do. I will shave my legs because it's more comfortable and I prefer it. But I'm taking a stand against painting my nails. This is something else that seems to have become de rigeur recently (and I've seen threads on here expressing horror that women don't do it), but it's too much hassle and I don't want to do it.

So I'm happily wearing my open toed sandals with polish free nails this summer. It won't bring down the patriarchy on its own, but I enjoy the fact that I've made a positive decision about it and feel no embarrassment or anxiety whatever. Little things.....

yazz21 - the 'cool girl' trope was very well explained in Gone Girl - the novel that was huge two summers ago. If you're looking for a beach read, I'd highly recommend it. The rest of the novel isn't very feminist, but that bit has been a lightbulb moment for quite a few people.

“Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, shit on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.

Men actually think this girl exists. Maybe they’re fooled because so many women are willing to pretend to be this girl. For a long time Cool Girl offended me. I used to see men – friends, coworkers, strangers – giddy over these awful pretender women, and I’d want to sit these men down and calmly say: You are not dating a woman, you are dating a woman who has watched too many movies written by socially awkward men who’d like to believe that this kind of woman exists and might kiss them. I’d want to grab the poor guy by his lapels or messenger bag and say: The bitch doesn’t really love chili dogs that much – no one loves chili dogs that much! And the Cool Girls are even more pathetic: They’re not even pretending to be the woman they want to be, they’re pretending to be the woman a man wants them to be. Oh, and if you’re not a Cool Girl, I beg you not to believe that your man doesn’t want the Cool Girl. It may be a slightly different version – maybe he’s a vegetarian, so Cool Girl loves seitan and is great with dogs; or maybe he’s a hipster artist, so Cool Girl is a tattooed, bespectacled nerd who loves comics. There are variations to the window dressing, but believe me, he wants Cool Girl, who is basically the girl who likes every fucking thing he likes and doesn’t ever complain. (How do you know you’re not Cool Girl? Because he says things like: “I like strong women.” If he says that to you, he will at some point fuck someone else. Because “I like strong women” is code for “I hate strong women.”)”
? Gillian Flynn, Gone Girl
tags: what-men-really-want 2843 likes Like

The women policing women comment is interesting. A similar point was made on the other thread although from the other point of view that certain feminists are almost like sexist men in their criticism of other women.

Ha - I've done that at a job - i actually asked for a couple more of the uniform polos that most people were so against wearing so I could just turn up each day in trainers, jeans and t-shirt. In fact, that's pretty much what DP and I both do now (we even share boxers and t-shirts) - but then we're lucky, we've been in our games long enough that people know we're competent no matter what we wear - we both know we have to dress up for new customers/formal stuff.

I had some friends who couldn't understand it - part of the joy of their morning was the ritual of getting up, picking an outfit and putting their face on.

I don't have enough toenail to paint (tiny feet, tiny toes, almost non-existant nails they're so small on 4 of them) - and I'm leaving them hairy too (why yes, I do rather resemble a hobbit - except for the size of my feet). Worse still, after years of derision, I finally bought a pair of Crocs, and have had to apologise to all the people I disbelieved when they told me how comfy they are.

But that's weird Lass - because no-one here is saying you shouldn't shave your legs or wear a dress!

They're saying that you shouldn't have to, and discussing the societal motivations behind these habits.

I think that the policing one is an interesting issue. I know a lot of women think feminists are policing their behaviour when they are in fact trying to do class analysis - there's a big difference between saying "you as an individual are a weak-willed sheep for shaving her legs..." (which is, generally, not what feminists are saying) and saying "all of us, whether we realise it or not are steeped in the surrounding culture, so shaving legs is not an entirely free choice - it is a choice which is much much easier to make than to resist - and in that respect it is a massively different type of 'choice' from a man deciding whether to be clean shaven or have a beard." But my experience is that no matter how carefully you try to articulate the second point of view, some people will always hear "and you, individual you who I the nasty feminazi have decided to pick on for the hell of it, are a weak minded sheep..."

It's a different thing from the very personal attack I experienced (from a man) of "Ew, you've got hairy armpits, that's gross..." Ha ha, he made the crucial mistake of thinking I was someone who gave a flying fuck about his opinion. Big mistake!

I agree, Lurcio, about the impossibility of making the second point to some people.

From now on I'm going to carry a small bag of (recycled) paper planes and throw them as the flying fuck I give when people make sexist remarks.