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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Its all one big conspiracy

297 replies

yazz21 · 04/07/2015 12:06

Its only after all the transgender threads on here recently, that I've thought about feminism, and started looking into things. The more I read, the more I learn, the more shocked I am.

Its just like one massive conspiracy that I never saw. Now my eyes have been opened to it, I can't stop seeing it. (Not that I'd want to.) I see everything around me so differently. Just little things that all add up to keeping women subordinate.I never realised how much my behaviour, thoughts and actions is not innate, but things I've learned through socialisation.

I really wish I'd seen it all earlier, but for some reason I had this notion that feminism was just men hating women who were probably hairy and/or lesbians Hmm I wonder who benefitted from me thinking that.

I'm not sure what my point is really, but I feel really angry on behalf of women and really want to do something about it. However there are no feminist groups/meetings in my area, and I'm not well read enough to start one. Any other angry womenn here? Also if anyone could reccomend some books, so I can further my understanding. I would be really grateful.

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Original poster
yazz21 · 04/07/2015 17:10

Thanks for the links Buffy. I will have a look at the blogs.

Thank you everyone for the book suggestions :)

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Yops · 04/07/2015 23:20

I never realised how much my behaviour, thoughts and actions is not innate, but things I've learned through socialisation.

How can you live in a society and not be 'socialised'? Do people really think that their decisions are not guided by social rules and norms? The only alternatives I can see are either total isolation or being a sociopath. Did you really think you did everything off the cuff prior to your Damascene moment, Yazz?

BakingCookiesAndShit · 04/07/2015 23:44

Yops, you would be amazed at the number of people who do believe just that. Look at any thread about shaving/waxing, make up or changing names on marriage and you will find examples of women who will deny any socialisation and who become really quite nasty when challenged. Social norms and blindly fitting in with them are real flash points and some of the biggest originators for straw feminist hatred on MN.

Damascene moments are jarring like this.

Yops · 04/07/2015 23:45

Also, a conspiracy by definition requires conspirators. Who are they?

BeyondTheWall · 05/07/2015 10:26

Umm, society, the media?

scallopsrgreat · 05/07/2015 10:31

OP when I first started my feminist journey one of the first books I read was Susan Faludi's Backlash. Amazing book. Incredibly detailed. And it really shows the dynamics at play in 'the conspiracy'. Basically, men will fight tooth and nail to keep their privilege.

Original poster
yazz21 · 05/07/2015 11:08

Yops not everything off the cuff no.
Things like shaving, on a bus moving up for a man, even if he was already taking up more space. I put that down to be just being polite. However if it was a woman I know I wouldn't of felt the need to move up.

I know these examples make me sound stupidly naïve. But I just didn't think/realise all the little things in my day to day life. ITMS

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Original poster
yazz21 · 05/07/2015 11:11

Sorry me not be.

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yazz21 · 05/07/2015 11:23

Thanks scallops that sounds really interesting.

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LassUnparalleled · 05/07/2015 11:57

Shaving gets mentioned regularly. There's a thread in Chat at the moment.
I found this interesting.

www.stuffmomnevertoldyou.com/podcasts/when-did-women-start-shaving-their-legs/

Seems to have become a thing due to rising hemlines and the introduction of sheer stockings. Possibly a flapper looked at herself in her new short dress and thought "hmm those coarse black hairs are spoiling the look " and made her mind up all by herself to shave her legs. Not everything is a conspiracy, not everything is blindly fitting in.

BeyondTheWall · 05/07/2015 12:10

Thats america though (i guess from 'mom'?), i remember reading (though god knows where) that it only started in the uk when the american GI's were over here in the war and they were used to women shaving and a bit 'ewwww' at the british women. A bit like the uk used to be about 'european' women 10 years ago?

BeyondTheWall · 05/07/2015 12:17

I've read it now, it is american :)

Original poster
yazz21 · 05/07/2015 12:22

Cheers for the link.

Sorry, when I mentioned shaving. I was meaning more other areas than legs. E.g when I was pregnant and got a lot of thicker hair on my belly and chest. I felt I should get rid of it. Noone was seeing the area apart from myself and dp. It didn't bother either of us physically, but I felt self conscious about it, and like I should be getting rid of it. As if it was unnatural to leave it.

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LassUnparalleled · 05/07/2015 12:31

And that is entirely your decision. Why should you not feel like that?

BertrandRussell · 05/07/2015 12:35

"And that is entirely your decision. Why should you not feel like that?"

Why should she?

BeyondTheWall · 05/07/2015 12:36

Yes yazz, I understand. After all, even if you made that decision yourself, you didnt do so in a vacuum :)

BeyondTheWall · 05/07/2015 12:38

Another one I'd think of is the amount of women wondering if they should have a pre-labour vaj-wax. I know i was one.

BertrandRussell · 05/07/2015 12:42

Yes. Women worrying if their midwife will be disgusted by them having pubic hair. Sad

scallopsrgreat · 05/07/2015 13:32

"I know these examples make me sound stupidly naïve." No they don't (although I think Yops comments intended you to make you feel like that). People take things for granted all the time. Men included. Their privilege, for example.

Original poster
yazz21 · 05/07/2015 13:38

Yes that was another one. I was thinking, I hope I don't go into labour today before I've had a chance to tackle the area. Also everytime I went to my midwife appointments, the belly hair thing was on my mind. (Because I didn't shave/wax it). I was wondering if they were put off by it.

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LassUnparalleled · 05/07/2015 13:45

Yes yazz, I understand. After all, even if you made that decision yourself, you didnt do so in a vacuum

No in the privacy of her own house in front of a mirror. Why deny her the right to think I don't like the look of that - unless she runs it through a feminist analysis?

I don't think Yops comment was intended that way nor that it was specifically addressed to the OP.

BertrandRussell · 05/07/2015 13:50

"No in the privacy of her own house in front of a mirror. Why deny her the right to think I don't like the look of that - unless she runs it through a feminist analysis?"

Nobody is denying her the right. But there is no harm in having the occasional look at our motives, surely? As somebody has said, we very rarely do anything in a vacuum.

Ashwinder · 05/07/2015 13:51

I don't often post on the feminism board because even though I absolutely identify as one, I feel so much less articulate and erudite than other posters so I generally hold back.

But I absolutely agree OP. I go through phases of being very angry. And also phases of doubting my own feminist credentials as it were. One thing that often concerns me is the extent to which I still colude in societal norms for a quiet life. I don't particularly mind my body hair, but I shave my legs in summer and my bikini line if I'm wearing a swimsuit because it's the done thing if appearing in public. There are dozens of other small examples. I suppose I'm reluctant to put my head above the parapet. I care too much what other people think of me.

FunnyCatVideo · 05/07/2015 13:53

Yes, OP, I can totally relate. I was always feminist, but lately twitter etc have brought more and more to my attention. And the notion of feminists being hairy / men hating / frumpy etc is ANOTHER example of the patriarchy defining women. Am glad feminism is becoming more main stream and that view is being challenged. And am baffled by those who say they are NOT feminists. Think I saw a post here recently about equating that to being ok with (eg) racism. Thats how I feel about it

Original poster
yazz21 · 05/07/2015 13:59

Perhaps because the only reason I felt I didn't like the look of it, was because of how I thought other people would view it, and then view me as a result. Also if it wasn't for the constant messages from society about womens body hair. I wouldn't of felt like that at all.

I did feel like what I'd said had been abit unfairly picked apart by Yops. I didn't originally post for a debate or in a place where there was a debate going on. (Which is where I would expect my words to be picked apart.) I posted for friendly advice about ways to further educate myself.

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