Being silenced/feeling voiceless

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Can we talk about this?

There were some amazing threads on here a few years ago, about rape and about 'small' sexual assaults, and I remember so many posters saying they'd suddenly found a way to talk about something that had shaped them as people. It seemed really powerful to me. But I was wondering if we're actually going backwards in terms of feeling able to speak up.

I was in a meeting yesterday, and noticing how some women (including me) do that classic 'I don't know if I'm saying this very well' kind of minimising of their own points. I was really struck that someone said 'I need to learn the language to say this' - as if she was being inarticulate, rather than as if people weren't bothering to listen to what she was saying (which was closer to the case).

I keep on feeling this way, especially about all the debates raging around gender identity issues - I just don't have the language to say what I want to say. I can't help feeling as if all of us who disagree are just miscommunicating. Does anyone else feel that? I don't feel as if I have the language to talk about what makes me feel hurt and upset by words like 'cis' - I think it's a real feeling, and I think it is related to sexual violence, but I don't feel very able to put it into words, especially outside MN.

Does anyone else feel like this?

Yesterday I read a bunch of stuff about fat models (sorry, I mean plus-size) and decided I really like it!
Things to gripe about: bog-standard sexiness; hairless bodies; pushed-up boobs.
Things to love: genuine diversity; totally credible love of their own bodies & selves; mass-media exposure; improved consumer choice.

I will not take part in the censuring & policing women's bodies on grounds of what the NHS says is a healthy size. All these young women seem very healthy indeed, certainly healthier than the degree of skinny currently required by the mainstream fashion industry. Excess fat is better for women's health than too little fat and, in any case, fashion photography's about clothes not health advice.

Some of the articles I read also covered a move towards 'athletic' bodies, by which they meant muscular with small boobs. This was a little odd to my ancient eyes, as the women looked like the early 80s supermodels. But I take the point that models have now moved towards super-skinny with sticky-out Barbie boobs, so this again is a move towards showing fashion on 'real' female bodies.

Looking around the town where I live, I love the way young women dress to show off even though they're quite a bit fleshier than any mainstream fashion photo. Something is changing for the better - I'm not quite sure what it is, though. If it's no more than "You can be a fat sex object," then it's probably a very tiny step in some direction or other () But I'm hoping it's also about increased confidence and reduced judgement.

Sorry, I'm writing so slowly that I'm missing loads of posts! Should take a break.

Thanks innocent, I think that's exactly what I was trying to say.

I really dislike when people say "you're being judgemental". It seems like a great way of silencing people. And it's morally superior. I've never met anyone who literally doesn't judge.

I think my pretty/impractical thing is that I know lots of things I would describe as beautiful and practical. It's like if I'm planning an outfit and I want to feel pretty I know that means impractical / constraining clothing or shoes. Whereas I can feel beautiful in jeans. That's just the way I use the word, so I'm sure loads of people don't think the same.

Thanks!

Ooh, they have pockets!

Fwiw, I don't agree that impractical = bad. There's loads of impractical things which are really good. DPs motorbike is really impractical but he loves it and keeps it anyway, so that's good. My shoes from last night are really impractical, but they're good too.

It's funny, isn't it?

I know an awful lot of little boys who dressed up as girls (or were dressed up by their big sisters!) because that is 'play' and it's fun and silly. And I know a lot of women who yearn back to when they were children and got to wear their brother's hand-me-downs because they were practical and unrestricting and good for being 'tomboyish' in. It never quite struck me before how absurd it is that we associate these things with being children, instead of just saying 'why don't we all just dress how we want as adults'?

(I mean, I know we would advocate dressing however you want, but society generally doesn't.)

While we're on a language theme - the word 'tomboy' is a bit crap too, isn't it? Like girls who want to climb trees aren't proper girls. Reinforcing the idea that there are 'boys interests' and 'girls interests'.

What do you use instead of tomboy? Active maybe? That's a verb rather than a noun, so is better for describing behaviour IMO.

Tomboy is a bit crap, it implies that fearless, active, agile, athletic are qualities owned by boys, but I don't find it offensive. Perhaps I should. I also like the word feisty but apparently some people think it is patronising. That's the nice thing about FWR for me, in the past when I tried to make sense of life I was ridiculed (silenced) by my male dominated household for my 'feminist' stance.

I would not feel so uncomfortable with traditions like asking for father's permission to marry and being 'given away' by father to husband like a chattel if I had grown up in a household where these things could be discussed without disparagement.

My son has just complained about the girly adverts on tv for shampoo, when I said he uses shampoo too his reply was that the shampoo in the ad was for girls because boys don't have to have shiny hair. He's 7.

I think 'tomboy' is a bit crap. I agree with bolleaux that it sounds like active/physical/outdoorsy are 'boy' qualities. A few times recently I've been walking home with my 6 year old DD and had sexist comments about her behaviour. Once she was climbing a tree and another mum said 'she's climbing just like a boy' (no, just like a child). Another time she was walking through an overgrown, nettly patch by the path. A dad nearby said to his son something like 'see, you won't go down there, that girl's braver than you.

With the pretty/practical thing I agree that it's wrong to teach girls that they should always think about their appearance. I wouldn't want my girls to choose an outfit based on how it makes them look to others, I hope and believe that they choose based on their personal likes. And yes, their clothes need to be reasonably practical, but there are plenty of practical dresses available.

I do despair about girls' shoes though, it pissed me off every time I go into a shoe shop. Patent Mary Jane's with flat, smooth soles vs chunky trainers with tree-climbing grips. Or in summer, girls get strappy little sandals in silver with exposed toes, boys get tough, rubber soles with thick comfortable straps.

This is a really interesting thread that covers several aspects of being a woman that I'm very interested in:

I'd love a better word than tomboy, if some clever FWR poster could suggest one, because it's how I've been all my life.
I'm a woman and I'm in the right body (ok, grey hairs and wrinkles apart) but currently "tomboy" is the nearest I can say to describe my clothes and activity. I'll be 59 next week, so it feels inappropriate.

I've always chosen practical clothes and shoes, hated skirts / dresses, frills or high heels - I haven't worn any since an interview in 1993. I wear minimum makeup for work, none outside work. I live in sportswear, Adidas & Nike.
I've always been very active, so I hated clothes that restricted what I wanted to do. As a little girl, I was never sweet - I liked toy guns, not dolls.
I'm a scientist.

I don't like "feminine" exercise, like running, swimming, Zumba.
I call myself a "gym rat" not a "gym bunny" because I feel small and tough, not cute and fluffy.
I love boxing and lifting heavy weights, in classes with strong women and men.
I'm short and a healthy weight, but I enjoy being very muscular for a woman. I've always rejected the idea of exercise to make me smaller, or take up less space. That would diminish me.

ok, what are alternatives to "tomboy" that might suit me ?

hmm feminine sports..netball? hockey? ballet (I'm thinking about Billy Elliot now)

My friend's young ds plays cricket and played against a mixed sex team where she said the girls completely outplayed the boys. This is the world I want my sons to grow up in, not that girls or woman need to be better than them but that they can be equally good and their abilities respected not denied.

Incidentally, one of our local gymnastics clubs has an 'elite' invitation only team, it has only one male member.

Thanks for this thread Jeanne. I've had a number of lightbulb moments on here just reading through. Especially Beach's first post and ChunkyPickle's: "My problem is that it feels like a glib dismissal, totally ignoring what I say I am in favour of what someone else says I am."

Slightly off topic I had an interesting couple of discussions with some women this weekend and we all agreed we did running because it was quicker than say cycling. You got effectively the same amount of benefit for much less duration. Pull on a pair of trainers and jogging pants and you are out of the door for half an hour/40 mins. The man in the discussion was a cyclist and he said 'Oh I did a cycle ride straight from work this week and still got home by 8" and saw no irony with that and what we were saying. He has a wife and young children and just basically left her to it whilst he went off cycling for 3 hrs. He felt no qualms about using up 3 hrs of her time so he could do his hobby.

Maybe that's why running is perceived as a feminine sport? Women can afford the time to do it? (although I have to confess I've never seen it as a feminine sport either, nor swimming. Men still want to beat the pants off you when you do it!)

And on the practical/pretty thing. As Jessica pointed out, men have plenty of impractical things yet they aren't sneered at (by society) in the same way as many impractical things that women have/do. I have two sheds, a garage and not one but two fucking lofts full of impractical shite that my partner insists on keeping.

BigChoc, I'd go for strong, active, fit, energetic as words!

I could stick with gym rat, but I was looking for something that covered the full me < ponders further >

People who ask about my training tend to double-take and say "oh, I thought that was just men" whereas women who run don't get that response.
I think it is the difference between exercise that makes us bigger / smaller.
Also both boxing and lifting involve a lot of grunting and farting and boxing requires some agression.

Mind you, women sprinters are usually superbly muscled and Tough Mudder runs are definitely not in the traditional feminine image either.

btw, in 2012 when GB's Nicola Adams became the first female boxer in history to win an Olympic gold medal, we cheered to the rafters. So inspiring and a brilliant athlete. That brought more women to join us.

I was looking for something that covered the full me

Are there really many people for whom one word could cover the full person?

Does tomboy mean a girl who likes climbing trees, getting muddy, playing sports etc. ? What then about the girl who's not particularly sporty in terms of physical activity but likes train sets, sports stats, cars, computer games, sci fi etc.?

Surely the problem is trying to find one word to categorise a person (beyond male/female/intersex - not trying to take this back to a trans conversation by the way)?

I think the train set, sports stats, computers & sci fi is more geek territory, and I say that as someone who's finally embraced my geekiness. I wish I had the confidence to do so when I was younger.

But not nerd. The geek shall inherit the earth apparently, just ask Bill Gates.