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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Being silenced/feeling voiceless

367 replies

JeanneDeMontbaston · 26/06/2015 12:05

Can we talk about this?

There were some amazing threads on here a few years ago, about rape and about 'small' sexual assaults, and I remember so many posters saying they'd suddenly found a way to talk about something that had shaped them as people. It seemed really powerful to me. But I was wondering if we're actually going backwards in terms of feeling able to speak up.

I was in a meeting yesterday, and noticing how some women (including me) do that classic 'I don't know if I'm saying this very well' kind of minimising of their own points. I was really struck that someone said 'I need to learn the language to say this' - as if she was being inarticulate, rather than as if people weren't bothering to listen to what she was saying (which was closer to the case).

I keep on feeling this way, especially about all the debates raging around gender identity issues - I just don't have the language to say what I want to say. I can't help feeling as if all of us who disagree are just miscommunicating. Does anyone else feel that? I don't feel as if I have the language to talk about what makes me feel hurt and upset by words like 'cis' - I think it's a real feeling, and I think it is related to sexual violence, but I don't feel very able to put it into words, especially outside MN.

Does anyone else feel like this?

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 29/06/2015 08:15

All of this is what I call in my head "limits/restrictions and boundaries". It is interesting how we have gone from silencing (of speech and even thoughts) to physical silencing and restrictions.

Society imposes limits and restrictions on how we can behave and these vary over time and culture but the recurring theme is the same. These limits and restrictions curb our freedom and control our behaviour and thoughts thereby invading/crossing our boundaries.

So if a women's boundary is her natural state as a free human being with bodily autonomy, agency and freedom of thought and movement, society then uses gender to constantly trample over that boundary. It uses gender to tell us who we are but, more importantly, what our place is.

And girls' and women's place is inferior, subjugated, exploited, controlled. And all this stuff about what we can wear, sports we can do, what we can call ourselves, where we can go, etc is a constant, drip drip reminder of our place. Add to that the constant threat of male violence if we step out of that place plus a general undercurrent of male violence even when we don't step out of it, just to make sure.

And this, this, is what it is to be a woman. What it is to be female is to have a female reproductive system (whether it produces babies or not).

Going back to the term "cis" and silencing - "cis" invisibleizes all of the above. And "cis privilege" tells us that we are fortunate to live with all of the above. It is the language of the gaslighting abuser who seeks to cross women's boundaries. It is collective abuse at societal level.

Jeanne upthread you reminded us of the thread where we shared experiences of sexual assault and harassment. Like you, that thread has stuck in my mind. It was the first time that I understood what my sexual assault was (teenager on public transport penetrated but not with a penis). It was me being told who I was, and what my place was. I remember at the time having a sudden and shocking realisation that men could hurt me and sexual assault me pretty well whenever they wanted and that nobody was doing anything about it. I think I was about 13. I learnt a lot about restrictions and boundaries that day, I just didn't have the words or thoughts to process it at the time.

I do now though and I know that being called "cis" is just another trampling of my boundaries and my right to self-determination. It is all part of the same thing. Gender does harm.

Jessica2point0 · 29/06/2015 09:31

I know that being called "cis" is just another trampling of my boundaries and my right to self-determination.

I think this explains how I feel perfectly. Thanks!

microferret · 29/06/2015 10:29

Feel a bit gutted because I just wrote a big massive rant and it didn't post (stupid ipad). I've been lurking on this thread for a while trying to condense my thoughts into something that adds to the discussion, as so many posters have articulated how I feel about things better than I could hope to. Here's my contribution..

One of my issues with all this cis bollox is that some trans people act as if hating their body and feeling it is a cage is a feeling that only they have experienced. I'm pretty sure most women have felt an extreme urge to drastically change their body on many occasions, if not constantly. After years of hating my physical body I have only in the last few years reached a point where I am proud of my body and even in awe of it, largely due to having gestated, birthed and breastfed a child. But prior to that I had such a bad relationship with my own body image, and I have often wanted to drastically change my body, I have often felt it was a prison.

I became aware that my body did not match up to the ideal at age 7 (I was short and muscular rather than long and willowy). I desperately wished to be someone else. Just because that wish wasn't centred around growing a dick or having a beard that doesn't make it any less real. I used to choose a girl to idolise, always a naturally skinny girl, and I would try to emulate her appearance and personality in order to feel I was more like her. Hitting puberty made it worse, suddenly gaining weight destroyed the little confidence I had and set off a period of starving, bingeing, and wearing huge amounts of makeup. I was so ashamed of my short, stocky legs that I used to carry my trumpet case everywhere around school right in front of them, so it knocked into my knees, in an attempt to hide them (I must have looked MENTAL). I binged and starved from age 14 to 17, when I simply stopped eating and existed on under 200 calories a day for about 6 months. Between the ages of 17 and 19 I rigidly controlled my own calorie intake and was only able to accept my own body when I was abusing and starving it. At university I fell into a cycle of starving, bingeing, ballooning in weight and then shrinking to nothing in a matter of months, all the while ashamed because my mental health issues were so visible. I researched leg-lengthening operations and liposuction. I considered taking speed as a weight-loss method. I was never even really fat, just chubby - my BMI has never been above 26. But my self-hatred and the feeling that my body was betraying me was always there. The wish to be someone else was always there.

My experience is not unique. Nearly all the girls I know from school experienced disordered eating at some point. I know women who say their lives only really began after breast augmentation. I recently met a lovely, vibrant, whippet-thin Chinese girl who still starves herself and feels fat; on her face the scars from rhinoplasty and eye-widening surgery are still visible. As women, we tattoo makeup onto our faces, get hair extensions, breast implants, breast reductions, facelifts, Botox, collagen injections. We rip hairs out of our legs, armpits and pubic areas at great expense and pain. We follow restrictive diets that harm our bodies and make our bodies feel weak and listless, and we hate ourselves for being mentally weak when we are not disciplined enough to suffer them. This is self-mutilation just like SRS is self-mutilation. Just because we are women already, it doesn't mean that we enjoy this shit, or that it doesn't profoundly harm both our bodies and our souls.

To be told that all of this is a privilege just adds insult to injury and demonstrates just how little many trans women appreciate what it really means to be born and socialised a woman. It isn't some pink glitter covered parade of lipstick, handbags and ugg boots. It's largely a painful slog through a lifetime of feeling not good enough, of being at odds with oneself, of struggling to gain self-acceptance. Not to mention the systemic oppression, the threat of violence, the sexual harassment and assault which one learns to see as normal because it happens so fucking often, the workplace discrimination, the no-win situation of being labelled either a slut or a prude. Don't even get me started on periods, the pain and shame they cause, the minefield of contraception, pills, coils, hormones, the virtual impossibility of getting even a decent man to wear a fucking condom, thrush, pregnancy, abortion, the expectation to shave your pubis, the expectation that you will not only give frequent blow jobs but enjoy them too. I could go on and on.

So when someone tells me to check my cis privilege, quite frankly they can just fucking fuck right off. None of this shit is a privilege. It is a fucking burden. And I'm not going to waste my time competing with these people over who has it harder. Having a tough life does not make you entitled to coerce other oppressed people into saying what you want them to say, or into redefining their own identities to make you feel better about yours.

And finally, people like Ego, who came on here into a discussion between women about women to swear at us, make it about them, and tell us all we're wrong, we don't know what we're talking about and that we've got no empathy - however much Ego may "feel like a woman", they are behaving like a typically socialised male, with all the entitlement and narcissism and bullying, coercive aggression that comes with being one.

Beachcomber · 29/06/2015 11:41

Round of applause from me microbrewery. Thank you for posting that.

I'm glad you feel good about your body now. Our bodies are fucking awesome. I guess that's why we have to constantly be told how faulty and weak and ugly they are - it is an attempt to prevent us from realising how amazing we are.

Jessica2point0 · 29/06/2015 12:16

I almost cheered when I read that micro! I remember when my sister had her first baby and I was struck that her body was able to grow an actual human being. That's amazing. I'm going through infertility testing at the moment, and when I looked into all the complex processes involved I'm not so much surprised that my body might not be able to do it - I'm astounded that any woman's body has ever managed it. Our bodies are amazing.

I'm also pretty angry that in order to protect myself against unwanted pregnancy it was normal (and expected) that I would shove hormones into my body causing unknown and potentially lasting effects.

I am currently going through a process of trying to accept how I look. I purposefully stopped wearing makeup so that I can get used to how my face looks. I've spent years off and on dieting, in many forms. But now I've given up. I'm sick of pretty shoes that hurt my feet and of pulling out grey hairs. I've reached breaking point and I'm not doing it any more. My body is amazing in so many ways and I'm done with hating it.

LurcioAgain · 29/06/2015 12:18

Micro, thanks for that - a very thoughtful post, and I'm so glad you're feeling better about your body now. Comparing your post with the ones preceding it about sports makes me realise how massively fortunate I was to get involved in sport relatively early in my life - for most of my adult life I've focused on what my body can do rather than what it looks like, and as a result have felt very much more at peace with it than many of my friends. But this is luck - I have the right sort of build, and the good fortune to have discovered sports I liked doing I should add my good luck in this respect doesn't help women who find sports a pain in the bum (or, like one of my friends - quite literally a pain in the tit: even with the most supportive bra you can imagine, she still can't run more than about 20m without extreme discomfort).

And even then I'm not immune to the pressures. Someone on here about a year ago posted the wonderful line "damn you, patriarchal standards of fuckability", and although my sporting activity made me feel comfortable with my body, I've never felt sexually attractive. (In fact, here the sport thing becomes a double-edged sword - small breasts, visible muscles - the antithesis of what popular culture declares to be sexually desirable in a woman). And as a heterosexual woman, that has been a source of insecurity for me. (And bloody confusing as a feminist - I don't want the unwanted male gaze, the shite from blokes on public transport or on building sites, but I do - or did when I was a bright young thing - want to gussy up and go on the pull in night clubs...)

Garlick · 29/06/2015 12:27

Great post, micro.

I've been reading about transmisogyny. Transwomen face sexual violence, murder and economic oppression. Looking at black transwomen, the figures go off the scale (in America; I'm not even sure we have enough to form a statistical base.) This is very bad. What I don't seem to be finding is acknowledgement that this is, and has always, been true for female women. I am finding, bizarrely, sympathy stories about transwomen having to hide their true nature by reverting to masculinity in order to evade violence. Female women don't have this option! Moreover, these instructions essays on transmisogyny are oddly silent on the worldwide epidemics of sexual mutilation, girl baby murder, forced pregnancy and forced childbirth which are specifically perpetrated on female-born humans.

I wanted to highlight this for two reasons: [1] so as not to downplay the similarities between transmisogyny and 'cis'misogyny, and [2] to highlight that the problems are even worse for female-born women, yet current social narratives insist we are privileged above transwomen.

This way, I'm making sure that I neither silence transpeople nor collude in the prevalent silencing of women.
If only there were some louder trans* voices doing the same.

laurierf · 29/06/2015 12:45

micro - I'm sure there are many of us who can relate to what you've said, and what Beach has said, about the limitations and boundaries placed on us by our bodies in this society, and how "cis" buries that. It puts 99% of the population all in a box together, which makes little sense even before the tag of 'privileged' is stuck on it.

I'm not sure whether this should be posted on the Feminism 101 thread - because I'm aware these are really old issues for many of you but not things I've discussed before really - or if this is all part of the 'feeling voiceless' and not knowing having the language or knowing how to express something… but it seems to me that some of the comments and attitudes about women you see from some gay men, say, demonstrates how much the existence of the female body can be seen to confine us. Men who don't want to have sex with women make some horrendous judgements about straight and gay females and - in the circles I've mixed in - I feel like it's allowed to pass by in a way that it's not with straight men, because I guess, gay men have been oppressed.

FloraFox · 29/06/2015 13:15

Jeanne this is an interesting thread. I love anted to stay away from it so I didn't get drawn into another trams thread. I've been thinking about this a lot. I don't think language is the problem. We do have words to describe what we feel the problem is the ideas we are trying to express. There will never be neutral words to use in these discussions because the ideas are so opposed. Transactivists will not tolerate language for women that MTTs cannot also occupy. Whatever word we retreat to, they will follow. There was a point not long ago when transactivists said "woman means gender and female means sex". Now that is no longer enough and people like Paris Lees can write in the Guardian that an Olympic decathlon champion (a male only sport) or homophobic violent boxing promoters have always been female.

I consider language to be an appropriate form of resistance. I am not cisgender, gender queer, gender fluid, pan gender, agender or whatever other boxes people might make up. I am a woman because I am an adult human female. I don't need a label for my personality that only makes sense in the context of societal expectations about the sort of personality that someone with my body should have that when I think those expectations are not only false but harmful.

Jessica2point0 · 29/06/2015 15:24

Flora that's a really good point. I don't mind labels which are statements of fact and define me physically (blonde, blue eyed, woman etc) but I object when someone else tries to define my entire personality. To be honest, I reject anything which tries to link my personality with my sex and it feels a bit like that's what the word "cis" is trying to do. I don't think I should have to use a label I am uncomfortable with.

Laurie, you can post wherever you want! I don't really know many gay men so I don't really feel like I can comment on that. I do think since I've been paying attention to feminism I've become incredibly aware of how often people comment on women's bodies / appearance, far more than they do on men's. And I'd say the majority of the comments are negative.

laurierf · 29/06/2015 15:45

I know quite a few gay men and I suppose I'm talking about comments ranging from "ugh British politics seems to attract a particular kind of women" (conversation about Nicola Sturgeon and leading to some horrible stereotypes about "these kinds of women" who basically speak too much - I kid you not!), "she's got awful/marvellous tits" etc., "lesbians are really clumsy" is one of the more polite ones - seems to be a particular willingness to say negative stuff about lesbians in front of straight women, without realising what they're doing is actually criticising women. I pull them up on it but am always Shock at everyone else agreeing/ignoring/laughing.

laurierf · 29/06/2015 15:48

Clearly not saying all gay men are like this by the way! Just some of the people I socialise with.

Beachcomber · 29/06/2015 16:16

The word "cisgender" has been added to the Oxford English dictionary.

Apparently it is "a useful neutral term which has been increasing greatly in popularity for over 20 years,”

www.independent.co.uk/incoming/cisgender-has-been-added-to-the-oxford-english-dictionary-10343354.html

microferret · 29/06/2015 16:52

Thanks for the supportive comments all. Beach, I have found some of the things you've said on here incredibly helpful in vocalising my own feelings on this matter. I think there are so many ideas here that will help us articulate our emotions and opinions in future discussions of this subject (if, that is, we're allowed to have them without being accused of hate speech).

I do want to say that part of the reason I am interested in these discussions stems from a deep desire to be supportive of trans people, but in a way that doesn't impinge upon my own hard-won sense of identity. For my part, I feel that this forcing of language on people is often counterproductive. Some language changes are good - for example, I have no issue in calling a trans woman she, or a trans man he. I have no issue with calling Bruce Jenner Caitlyn Jenner. I fully respect the rights of individuals to change their bodies via surgery, or to grow their hair or wear make up or take hormones. What I ask for in return is the freedom to similarly choose how I define myself, and to have that respected. I do not see myself as "cis". I am a woman, I have always been a woman, both socially and biologically. The "trans" prefix is accurate - it suggests a movement from one gender to another. Why is it not okay to have two categories - women, and trans women? Why insist we are exactly the same when our lived experiences will have been so different? Why do people seem to think that forcing semantic changes onto unwilling people is the same as rewriting reality?

I am conflicted because I do empathise with trans people. I know they suffer a great deal. I know they are terribly unlucky to be born with gender dysphoria and to have to deal with all that entails in a society so obsessed with squashing people into boxes. But I just wish some of them could approach it in a way which empathises with us born females, and does not seek to impose language and ideas on us which are harmful to us and infringe on our own equally inalienable right to self-determination.

Jessica2point0 · 29/06/2015 17:03

On the topic of being silenced, I was just about to ask a question about transgender but after I'd written it I found I couldn't post in case I was being offensive. I can do some internet research, but it's really worrying that my own need to please / not offend is actually keeping me from understanding something better. Is that a common experience of women, or just people-pleasers?

laurierf · 29/06/2015 17:12

Why do people seem to think that forcing semantic changes onto unwilling people is the same as rewriting reality?

I think this also hits on an issue for me. I am in support of gay marriage. I found the arguments "but the word marriage means the union of a man and woman, I'm not saying gay people should have unions with equal civil rights attached to them as marriages, just that it should not be called marriages because then people have their existing marriages nullified" difficult to understand. Being new to it, I feel the conversation about "cis" comes perilously close to that at times and it makes me uneasy, but I suppose the difference I feel at the moment is that changing the meaning of social constructs (marriage, gender) is different from saying being male or female is "just semantics."

laurierf · 29/06/2015 17:13

*gay people should NOT have unions

Jessica2point0 · 29/06/2015 17:34

Okay, I've done a bit more research. Turns out, depending on the source / definition I am transgender and cisgender. According to Stonewall and OED I am actually transgender. So, can I be transgender, biologically a woman, happy being a biological woman and referred to as 'she'?! Maybe that's why I don't want to be called 'cis'. Because I'm not!

I really think I just don't understand the rules.

almondcakes · 29/06/2015 17:43

Laurie, in the marriage analogy, wouldn't the similar situation be if you went around telling people in other kinds of relationship that they were married, regardless of whether or not those other kinds of relationship wanted to be married?

I would object to that, other people telling me they had just decided that I was married under their new definition, and were going to treat me as married or refer to me as married without my consent.

laurierf · 29/06/2015 18:17

Yes, almond, thanks, I think that helps - the problem is I still have to keep going back and checking what cissexual/cisgender mean before I remember I'm being labelled as something that doesn't make sense to me, that I don't identify with, without my consent, and that it changes the way in which I'm supposed to refer to myself and others. If I can't keep a grasp of the meaning of a label I'm supposed to be applying to myself, then I really don't feel I can apply it to myself. As Jessica says, and as I said to ego earlier in the thread, sources and interpretations vary.

laurierf · 29/06/2015 18:22

I would like to add that years back I spent quite a lot of time with a woman who's now very prominent in the LGBT rights movement. She sometimes made assumptions about my attitudes, beliefs etc. based on my "heteronormativity" and we had some good-natured and very interesting exchanges because I felt that she was boxing me in a bit too.

Jessica2point0 · 29/06/2015 18:36

almond, that's a good point. Being labelled without your consent is bad.

When you don't understand the label, and can't ask because it's offensive, it's even worse.

bolleauxnouveau · 29/06/2015 18:38

Jessica my experience has been that woman are expected to be people pleasers so being a woman and a people pleaser are the same thing, and yes it is silencing because we are afraid to speak for fear of offence/disapproval.

Beachcomber · 29/06/2015 18:58

Thanks microferret and a couple of other people who have been kind enough to say that they got something from my posts.

I have a desire to help transmen (because they are female and therefore part of the sisterhood of feminism) and it hurts my soul to hear of butch lesbians having their breasts cut off and other damaging stuff. I don't have a particular desire to help transwomen any more than I do ordinary men.

When it comes to categories, to my mind, it is transphobic to insist that transmen are male/men and transwomen are female/women. Like there is something so wrong with being trans that the person must be shoehorned into another actual sex category. As I have said before, I also find such insistence homophobic, lesbophobic and misogynistic.

I think that the insistence that transwomen are women comes from a place of deeply internalized hypermasculinity (or homophobia). It is so not ok for a boy or a man to take on the trappings of the lower sex caste (girls and women) and any man who does must actually not be a man - and that means that he is a woman because we all know that woman equals not a man.

Garlick · 29/06/2015 19:05

YYY to your last paragraph, Beach - very sadly.